Simple answer: No, we can't get back to facts. Not as long as MAGA world - aided and abetted by trump, Miller, and the rest of the hate-filled right wing media has their agenda to push.
And when some people in the public sphere tried to say some facts - such as Kirk was a victim of a world he helped create? They get fired.
So. Hm. Let’s see. Didn’t Kellyanne Conway, special adviser to djt, introduce the concept of “alternative facts” as if that was somehow a valid and viable concept, and as equally important as “just the facts, ma’am”? That sure turned out well.
And now people claim that “their truth” is “THE TRUTH” instead of, let’s say, a personal opinion.
Meanwhile, enters AI, stage right, and well, it’s gets a little dicey, like we’re in an extended episode of the “twilight zone”.
Merry thank you ! You are on the money.. It has always bothered me that the mainstream media didn't push back on Kellyanne Conway.. It is right up there with both sides have a legitimate view. Right now it's the yelling that both sides need to be careful with there words ..Don't incite violence ...All the while it's the right that seems to be inciting the violence. I am sure some on the left are being irresponsible but I would bet the majority of of the bad behavior is on the right. My point is why don't they report it accurately ..
Exactly. There was only one MSM pushback that I remember, from Chuck Todd, on Meet the Press. And TODD got hammered for being too hostile toward Kellyanne!!!
(Sidebar - OMG I still miss Tim Russert! He was the master, and the sky turned black the day he died…)
Todd’s exchange with Conway-
“You did not answer the question of why the president asked the White House press secretary to come out in front of the podium for the first time and utter a falsehood,” Todd said to Conway on Sunday. “Why did he do that? It undermines the credibility of the entire White House press office on day one.”
“No, it doesn’t,” Conway replied. “Don’t be so overly dramatic about it, Chuck.”
Todd laughed at Conway’s assertion that Spicer’s claims were “alternative facts.”
“Wait a minute, alternative facts?” Todd said. “Alternative facts are not facts, they’re falsehoods.”
Though often said, it always bears repeating that if you love your money, your job and/or your power more than you love your families and children, nothing about our tragic times will ever change. It is easy to hate but love takes work.
Actually, I think the admin. currently in power consider us all expendable pawns, but for now attacking liberals or starting a conflict fits their agenda and plan, in my opinion.
Once they gain full power and end democracy, I rather doubt they will see any of us peasants as necessary nor any ideology or religious affiliation important.
Nothing Trump does, or little, is related to the old GOP ideology and so people often did not vote based on policy but based on tribalism and grievances fanned intentionally by the right.
This is why I think Trump came right out and blamed liberals for Kirk's death, because he knows first impressions matter. Some will look no further even as facts arise and I assume he knows this.
I also think he wants conflict so he has additional excuses to declare emergencies, in my view. However, once they gain full dictatorial power, it will be nothing more than pay to play, and ideology and his base will no longer be needed (look at what happened to Mike Pence when he was no longer needed).
Only those with deep pockets will matter when the ideology and the real religion being adhered to, is wealth and greed.
He wants a race war. The runaway locomotive he hulks in barrels down the track, toward that intended conflict. He's not the engineer, that would be Miller. He just shovels coal into the boiler.
They can’t truly ‘believe’ they’re not human — they just want to TREAT them that way & encourage others to do likewise in order to curb their power … in other words, disrespect & dehumanize them.
— but in essence this becomes only semantics, I suppose.
It would interfere with their agenda. This WH has been purging the government and military of anyone who is not a loyalist. Kirk’s death is their ticket to broaden that purge. There are claims of investigating ‘leftist’ organizations in UT now to see if any were involved or had prior knowledge. Any mention of other extremists muddies the picture.
“Left” is as vague as the “leftist ideology” comment by Utah’s gov who may be out of his league. Groypers use the song & some terms found on the shells. They are not leftists. They had a rivalry with Kirk & use words like ‘fascist’ for insults & irony. The song too. Gamers & others in the darker corners of the internet do also. They all use their own ‘language’ to not be “clearly” understood by outsiders.
This guy may not subscribe to a specific ideology but to a variety of pieces. Extremists aren’t necessarily clear thinkers. That wouldn’t fit the narrative set before he was ID’d.
We can get back. If I were a young, Democratic Senator, I'd make a public display of literally walking across the aisle, and shaking hands with a young Republican and boldly announce, "IT STOPS NOW. AND WE'RE GOING TO DO IT!" We have to do something different and we need actors who don't care about social media backlash and perhaps are even willing to give up their jobs. A fanciful dream or delusion but it's the only logical next step or we head into even more dangerous chaos.
And the publicity around the attempt would be phenomenal. No standing there talking to a camera to draw attention to myself (al Ted Cruz and Cory Booker). And I'd keep my hand out until someone took me up on it.
If a young Republican politician were hoping for a long term political future they wouldn't be caught dead shaking a Democrats hand. The Right wing "main stream" media would vilify them as would Nick Fuentes, Lara Loomer and Joe, it would be political suicide.
I would find one or stand in the aisle until one came up to me. Again not sure if it's just a dream or delusion but we have to do something different and this is an opportunity. Sad that a murder of someone has to be considered an opportunity but so be it.
I think I would say that they simply get more attention. And we are helping by reacting to them.
If we turn that around, by taking control of the conversation- not by pushing back, but simply by changing the subject, we can begin to change how that conversation turns out. The right wingers but especially the trolls will try to take it back but instead of responding to them, we keep talking to one another, and include the people who will begin to be drawn in once the conversation starts feeling safe.
Believe it or not, this happens a LOT in our substacks and other conversation places. The problem is that too often we give up, or we react instead of moving on.
Yep. Don't care. Doesn't change my mind at all. If I was a Dem in the Senate I'd do it. Not sure it would work but I'd stand there with my hand out until A Republican shook it and promised to work with me. And if no one did well then at least we'd know what our fate was.
I’m sure you realize periodically GOP and DEM senators or House members work on things together? Massie with Khanna for instance.
I very much doubt they want to join a photo op for social media devised by a Dem re: Kirk and peaceful co-existence. They sure don’t want the blowback — and I doubt you’d enjoy it either. The righties are busily doxxing & calling out anyone who criticized Kirk. They wouldn’t hesitate for a second to target anyone crossing them.
A moment of ‘silence’ for Kirk resulted in a row in the House. The WH has set a course. A very specific one on this. Getting along is not part of it. We need something more substantial to turn this ship around.
Periodically just isn't enough. And I never said we (politicians) need to get along. The point is that WE (not "they") have to take back control of the government and the only way is to do that is to get beyond "periodically". (I realize you were just using the word periodically to make a point. Pls don't take my highlighting it as a slight. I just wanted to my my point.)
A handshake is a symbolic act. Where are all the GOP legislators who worked with Dems on a more regular basis? Gone or they’ve doubled on showing loyalty to maga. No one wants to be targeted with the meme to follow that moment, shaking hands with “the enemy within.”
I think the Dems need to agreed on a set of principles & devise a coordinated national campaign around them with a theme of ‘are you better off?’. Skip the ‘rage rhetoric.’
Something like: the US sank 3 Venezuelan civilian boats (or whatever the daily outrage may be). Is your life better now?
But to be effective there must be solutions for key things people care about. If you scroll down to the map that show DJT’s approval rating by state, you can toggle between 2024 and now. This is what is driving the doubling down by the WH. https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker
Perhaps we already know. When the Senate confirmed every single one of Trump's incompetent cabinet members (Hegseth, Kennedy, Patel, etc.) and then rubberstamped the Big Ugly Bill, it was clear where we stood. The Senate in Trump 1.0 could be sensible some of the time. That is gone. I do not hate them; I just want to work to make sure that none of them is ever re-elected.
There are people throughout the government and outside it who are pushing hard against those people. Instead of wringing our hands, we can do things to support those people: by validating them, letting them know, writing letters to editors, all those things we get so bored of doing but that work if we keep doing them. We add our citizen voices to the voices who are speaking out from within: that's a big noise. They are already pretty nervous. Let's make them more nervous.
To see why they are nervous & why the WH doubled down the attacks. He wants to be a wartime president - no matter how big a stretch - to get more power & reverse his ever eroding approval ratings. You can scroll down to the state map & toggle between DJT’s approval rating by state during the election, 2024 and now.
I believe we need to address those issues; ask if xyz (the new ballroom or whatever) makes your life better.
We can react (they win). Or we can begin our own initiative, and create an open space. Our choice. If we persist, they are going to start looking like what they are: obstructionists. We have to start making new rules that don't include baiting, reacting, insults. Those new rules will only take effect if we stick to them, whether in Congress, state legislatures, committee meetings, town meetings, everywhere.
We don't have to be loud, but we do have to be persistant and we need to support one another. I'm appalled that so many of us are pushing against one another, instead of recognizing that we need to try many things, and work together to figure out what works and what fits what we are trying to do.
Working with these people is not feasible. The Republicans have allowed dt to do horribly evil things. They do not want to have a dialog. This is a fascist regime, and Democrats need to start treating it as such. This is not Republicans against Democrats as it was in decades past when it sometimes was possible to discuss policy and ideas.
Kathy, I just posted this above where you may not see it, so I am going to post it here too:
There are people throughout the government and outside it who are pushing hard against those people. Instead of wringing our hands, we can do things to support those people: by validating them, letting them know, writing letters to editors, all those things we get so bored of doing but that work if we keep doing them. We add our citizen voices to the voices who are speaking out from within: that's a big noise. They are already pretty nervous. Let's make them more nervous.
As I noted above, I DON'T CARE. And demonizing the other/either side is the only bi partisan thing happening in our country right now. I am not naive and realize we have reached a low point that history will make clear. BUT WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. And my idea is all I could think of.
I find your words particularly wise today. Yes, we have to continue to commit to facts. You have a way of saying what needs to be said without inciting further rage. You clearly communicate the gravity of our situation, but you do not inflame it. Thank you. It is a very exhausting time, but we are lost and really not helpful if we stay in a rage. My candle of hope has been flickering lately, but I know I have to give it oxygen and not let it totally go out. thank you for helping with that. Got to keep moving forward in this sinister time. Keep shining the light.
Steven, I went through a couple of days in a funk. So went car shopping again (daughter chauffeur). Finally found the perfect car for my needs and in my budget, but doggone, somebody else had already bought it. Nothing I could do about that, so did the other errands. On the way home, saw the same funky RV, tagged, parked in a pullout that we'd seen coming down. Somebody had broken down or run out of gas and lost their home. I have an old house that keeps me warm and dry, I have relatives nearby, I have enough food, and I keep in touch with people in various ways that enrich me (and this substack is part of that). I don't have much more than that, and I'm bummed about the car, but my life is in control. The life of whoever was forced to give up on that old RV was already out of control and probably they were trying desperately to find a way to get back on track.
I think things FEEL out of control. That RV is proof that things are not what they should be. I was frightened after the assassination, as afraid as anyone that it had been done by a fanatic trying to be a hero.
But something nagged at me: both my parents were born into the Mormon culture, and both moved as far away from the cultural center as soon as they could in the 30s, when they were young. I grew up outside the culture but exposed to its history and belief systems by elders in my mixed family who'd gradually eased away. I grew up listening to their stories, and they did not sanitize anything. In my gut, I strongly suspected that what happened in Orem had emerged from some of those concepts still embedded in Mormon culture, especially in deeply religious areas isolated from the liberalizing trends in the rest of Mormon Country (which, btw, is also Indian Country, and still is- there's another story in that).
I was not surprised when the very next day, I was proven right- though this story was sanitized, it still showed the roots it came from. I am deeply sorry for the families of both these young men, but both of them represent the holdovers of cultures that have been part of American history for a long time, and both distortions of our beginnings.
The most disgusting was the about face by Trump and those riding on his distorted ambitions. At the same time, that about face and the fact that there is simply no avoiding the machinations they attempted to make this event into something just its opposite gives me hope that things are not as out of control as they seem. Trump & Co are having to fight too hard to maintain face and the appearance of power, and it's not going over very well. We may have just experienced a shift. I hope so. Today, things feel different to me, as if the arc we were on has finally shifted enough to change the trajectory. Let's work hard to make it so.
One last thing: sending a virtual hug to you. Thank you for creating a forum in which I feel safe saying what I just did.
.... that have been part of American history for a long time, and both distortions of our beginnings.
The most disgusting was the about face by Trump and those riding on his distorted ambitions. At the same time, that about face and the fact that there is simply no avoiding the machinations they attempted to make this event into something just its opposite gives me hope that things are not as out of control as they seem. Trump & Co are having to fight too hard to maintain face and the appearance of power, and it's not going over very well. We may have just experienced a shift. I hope so. Today, things feel different to me, as if the arc we were on has finally shifted enough to change the trajectory. Let's work hard to make it so.
(Sorry about that- that last part got cut off, and I'm too tired to edit it down so it wouldn't be so long.)
I recall in my yourger days whe the word 'propaganda' was bantered around on the news it was always in reference to rogue regimes like Russia, North Korea and others. Never did we ever think of it existing in our own media or political discourse. But here we are, on steroids.
Yep. So. Hm. Let’s see. Didn’t Kellyanne Conway, special adviser to djt, introduce the concept of “alternative facts” as if that was somehow a valid and viable concept, and as equally important as “just the facts, ma’am”? That sure turned out well.
And now people claim that “their truth” is “THE TRUTH” instead of, let’s say, a personal opinion. Sounds like BS, (or propaganda), to me.
Meanwhile, enters AI, stage right, and well, it gets a little dicey, like we’re in an extended episode of the “twilight zone”.
What I have found the most productive, is to ask gentle, sincere QUESTIONS, from a genuine CURIOSITY. It has a way of refocusing their attention to what they KNOW, instead of the TALKING POINTS they are perhaps repeating.
I don't think we can get back to reason and truth until we have consensus from the Fourth Estate to factual reporting:
1) Stop sane-washing the Felon's speech.
2) Report FACTS without opinion,
3) Stop "both sides-ism." Again, use factual evidence to report events as they are, no matter who is involved.
4) Return the Fairness Doctrine: if one side runs BS ads, the other side must have equal time to counter.
5) Pass legislation to fund communities to restart their local newspapers, again with true journalistic reporting, with opinions limited to the Opinion pages. Community newspapers used to be where everyone read the same reporting of events, a communal set of facts.
6) PLEASE RETURN CIVICS EDUCATION TO SCHOOLS.
None of these things will happen in the foreseeable future. The Republican Party has abandoned all principles and duties to their constituents to maintain a stranglehold on power. money is in fear mongering, and the main news outlets have bent the knee to the Felon to report only what he allows. Until the GOP has some people who regain their spines and honor their oaths to the Constitution, this regime will continue to fan the flames of violence.
When did the line become so blurry? Following is my reply to Steven’s post…
Yep. So. Hm. Let’s see. Didn’t Kellyanne Conway, special adviser to djt, introduce the concept of “alternative facts” as if that was somehow a valid and viable concept, and as equally important as “just the facts, ma’am”? That sure turned out well.
And now people claim that “their truth” is “THE TRUTH” instead of, let’s say, a personal opinion. Sounds like BS, or propaganda, to me.
Meanwhile, enters AI, stage right, and well, it’s gets a little dicey, like we’re in an extended episode of the “twilight zone”.
MAGA doesn't worry about facts. Lies, like bad news, travel further, faster and last a long time. Some, never go away. Besides, it takes a calm demeanor to articulate the truth, but lies you can yell at the top of your lungs. Picture J6 with small groups, sitting cross-legged, in circles, discussing facts; instead of busting windows, attacking policemen and erecting a gallows.
Yep. So. Hm. Let’s see. Didn’t Kellyanne Conway, special adviser to djt, introduce the concept of “alternative facts” as if that was somehow a valid and viable concept, and as equally important as “just the facts, ma’am”? That sure turned out well.
And now people claim that “their truth” is “THE TRUTH” instead of, let’s say, a personal opinion. Sounds like BS, (or propaganda), to me.
Meanwhile, enters AI, stage right, and well, it gets a little dicey, like we’re in an extended episode of the “twilight zone”.
Keeping clear focus on facts keeps us sane. Failure to remain in touch with reality is the very definition of insanity.
The election of DJT in November 2024 proved that a substantial minority of American voters had lost their minds. Another substantial minority did not bother to vote. Only a third of eligible voters showed sanity.
Insane people cannot govern themselves. They are not competent. (“Non compos mentis” is the Latin phrase.)
So, you ask the crucial question: can Americans still govern themselves, or are we lost to insanity and lawless tyranny?
Methinks we have officially entered the extended version of the “Twilight Zone”
And we can thank Kellyanne Conway for introducing the concept of “alternative facts, as if that’s some sort of valid concept equal to FACTS and TRUTH, instead of someone’s personal opinion.
Agree. In fact if trump’s lips are moving he’s (usually) lying. I think he told the “truth” when he declared he only wanted to be dictator for one day. The rest is history.
Yes. We must focus on the facts. The more wild the other spreads conspiracy theories, the more the truth is needed. Most people, and I talk with 100 people a week in my work, on day to day interactions just want everything toned down.
But a broader picture, is this about Mr. Kirk, or is this a reaction to the radical approach to politics that he inspired. Yes he talked to people in open debate. But yes, you can find his online videos spewing blatantly racist positions. He said, when he sees an African American in a job, he asks himself did they deserve it or are they an unqualified DEI hire. I can’t imagine walking around with that running through my head.
I saw him as a provocateur, someone who fires up his side. I feel for the loss of his family who lost him.
But I can also say good riddance to the hatred that he spewed.
The alleged shooter, Tyler James Robinson, comes from a Republican family, though Tyler is not registered to any party. His father is a retired sheriff in Washington County, Utah. There are photos of Tyler and his family with guns. Tyler Robinson dressed as Donald Trump for Halloween: a devout supporter, it would seem, who donated to Donald Trump in 2020. Tyler, we know, hated Charlie Kirk because he was not far enough to the right.
Grifting to turn grief into grievance, manipulating the many’s mourning, Donald Trump solicits rage that he can exploit for violence—before there is any proof the left contributed to the shooting. The facts do not matter to Trump. That is irresponsible leadership from Trump. Republican members in Congress mimic their leader in jumping to conclusions whose only foundation is a pack of prior Trump lies. They are all written Evans history tells us they are deluded cultists. Gross irresponsibility of this magnitude is criminal malfeasance.
It is Trump who constantly and vociferously demonizes the left with his rhetoric. He does not seek to quench the Nation’s anger, to break with violence. He seeks to inflame any given moment, stoking the flames well before investigation uncovers any facts at all. It is he and Kirk that traded in vile, demonizing, and inflammatory rhetoric designed to incite violence. They both traded in an inflammatory speech to monetize the anger they created. The cult no longer has the intellectual ability to rationalize the moment.
These two people monetized their hostility like the money changers they are. They gaslighted the rest of us whenever a fire broke out, and they simultaneously fanned those flames while pouring gasoline on the fire.
History dictates that the shooter will be a Republican supporter. They are all angry white men with right leanings. EVERY ONE! If you do not see that, yours is a delusional world. Have you paid no attention at all to the political and racist violence of last decade? If so, you know the party of violence. I gathered a list for you. https://hotbuttons.substack.com/p/bilious-hate-mongering?r=3m1bs
The best way to return to facts is for those of us who can discern what is factual to not give up and go silent. The cracks in the brainwashing on the right are beginning to form. Just put facts out there as calmly and non judgemental and kindly as possible. Over time, as people realize they are also damaged by this mess we're on, enough will wake up. It's already happening, but be patient with people. Deprogramming yourself from a cult is never speedy.
“If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it be all those than that people worry over it. … Give the people contests they win by remembering the words to more popular songs or the names of state capitals or how much corn Iowa grew last year. Cram them full of noncombustible data, chock them so damned full of 'facts' they feel stuffed, but absolutely 'brilliant' with information. Then they'll feel they're thinking, they'll get a sense of motion without moving. And they'll be happy, because facts of that sort don't change.” ~ Ray Bradbury, “Fahrenheit 451”
Today to our building group email I asked if others had found any places in our DC neighborhood to get COVID vaccinations with a script or if 65+. (Nope. DC is on the ‘no vax’ list.) Lots of alt suggestions until one person wrote a screed of “absolute facts” about the harm of the vaccinations.
The short answer is “no” because as others have stated, “alternative facts” are what this entire regime and movement keep putting forth. Yes, here others wrote with links to _real_ facts about vaccinations. Still given measles outbreaks and deaths, we’re too far away from reality.
The problem to overcome is that conflict sells, and it has to be amped continuously as people become accustomed to it. Kirk made his millions off of it. Limbaugh the same, and the Murdochs. Robert Reich, on his podcast this morning, recalled the early days of this, when he was on air to argue with a conservative. They ended up listening to each other and finding agreement. In his ear, the producer was yelling at him to fake a fight, for better ratings. Until there is no financial incentive, lying and hate speech are here to stay.
On the personal level you can make choices about whom to give $$ and votes. You can demand elected representatives enact laws to restrict the influence of money and hold accountable those who lie to the public. You can urge those you influence, as you do, to be fair and honest. This is not nothing, especially when there are multitudes doing the same. But we’re still a drop in the ocean compared to the billionaires who grow ever richer by the day when we’re at each other’s throats, literally.
Simple answer: No, we can't get back to facts. Not as long as MAGA world - aided and abetted by trump, Miller, and the rest of the hate-filled right wing media has their agenda to push.
And when some people in the public sphere tried to say some facts - such as Kirk was a victim of a world he helped create? They get fired.
So. Hm. Let’s see. Didn’t Kellyanne Conway, special adviser to djt, introduce the concept of “alternative facts” as if that was somehow a valid and viable concept, and as equally important as “just the facts, ma’am”? That sure turned out well.
And now people claim that “their truth” is “THE TRUTH” instead of, let’s say, a personal opinion.
Meanwhile, enters AI, stage right, and well, it’s gets a little dicey, like we’re in an extended episode of the “twilight zone”.
Merry thank you ! You are on the money.. It has always bothered me that the mainstream media didn't push back on Kellyanne Conway.. It is right up there with both sides have a legitimate view. Right now it's the yelling that both sides need to be careful with there words ..Don't incite violence ...All the while it's the right that seems to be inciting the violence. I am sure some on the left are being irresponsible but I would bet the majority of of the bad behavior is on the right. My point is why don't they report it accurately ..
Exactly. There was only one MSM pushback that I remember, from Chuck Todd, on Meet the Press. And TODD got hammered for being too hostile toward Kellyanne!!!
(Sidebar - OMG I still miss Tim Russert! He was the master, and the sky turned black the day he died…)
Todd’s exchange with Conway-
“You did not answer the question of why the president asked the White House press secretary to come out in front of the podium for the first time and utter a falsehood,” Todd said to Conway on Sunday. “Why did he do that? It undermines the credibility of the entire White House press office on day one.”
“No, it doesn’t,” Conway replied. “Don’t be so overly dramatic about it, Chuck.”
Todd laughed at Conway’s assertion that Spicer’s claims were “alternative facts.”
“Wait a minute, alternative facts?” Todd said. “Alternative facts are not facts, they’re falsehoods.”
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kellyanne-conway-cites-alternative-facts-in-tense-interview-with-chuck-todd-over-false-crowd-size-claims-171242433.html
Yep I miss Tim Russert too..
😢😭
Humans suck at accuracy of what other people are feeling
The Law requires science to determine "harm to yourself or others".. aka We're required to ask:" Do you want to kill? "
One percent of the US tries to die annually. Tyler wanted to die but no one knew... no one obeyed the Law
3400,000/year attempted killings but 99.9% are not stopped because NO ONE OBEYS THE LAW
Each year in the US about:
1 percent try to die
5 percent want to die
30 percent of high school girls want to die
10% of high schoolers try to die
What is happening to America! How did it deteriorate so quickly, I despair for this once great country, it is not great anymore! 🤷♀️😤😡🤐🤬😖🤦♀️
Let's collaborate?😁
And not one word about the democrats who were slaughtered in their home. Not one word because they believe democrats are not human.
Not any word about the hundreds of children who have been slaughtered in their schools.
Though often said, it always bears repeating that if you love your money, your job and/or your power more than you love your families and children, nothing about our tragic times will ever change. It is easy to hate but love takes work.
Actually, I think the admin. currently in power consider us all expendable pawns, but for now attacking liberals or starting a conflict fits their agenda and plan, in my opinion.
Once they gain full power and end democracy, I rather doubt they will see any of us peasants as necessary nor any ideology or religious affiliation important.
Nothing Trump does, or little, is related to the old GOP ideology and so people often did not vote based on policy but based on tribalism and grievances fanned intentionally by the right.
This is why I think Trump came right out and blamed liberals for Kirk's death, because he knows first impressions matter. Some will look no further even as facts arise and I assume he knows this.
I also think he wants conflict so he has additional excuses to declare emergencies, in my view. However, once they gain full dictatorial power, it will be nothing more than pay to play, and ideology and his base will no longer be needed (look at what happened to Mike Pence when he was no longer needed).
Only those with deep pockets will matter when the ideology and the real religion being adhered to, is wealth and greed.
Once again, this is just my view.
He wants a race war. The runaway locomotive he hulks in barrels down the track, toward that intended conflict. He's not the engineer, that would be Miller. He just shovels coal into the boiler.
They can’t truly ‘believe’ they’re not human — they just want to TREAT them that way & encourage others to do likewise in order to curb their power … in other words, disrespect & dehumanize them.
— but in essence this becomes only semantics, I suppose.
It would interfere with their agenda. This WH has been purging the government and military of anyone who is not a loyalist. Kirk’s death is their ticket to broaden that purge. There are claims of investigating ‘leftist’ organizations in UT now to see if any were involved or had prior knowledge. Any mention of other extremists muddies the picture.
“Left” is as vague as the “leftist ideology” comment by Utah’s gov who may be out of his league. Groypers use the song & some terms found on the shells. They are not leftists. They had a rivalry with Kirk & use words like ‘fascist’ for insults & irony. The song too. Gamers & others in the darker corners of the internet do also. They all use their own ‘language’ to not be “clearly” understood by outsiders.
This guy may not subscribe to a specific ideology but to a variety of pieces. Extremists aren’t necessarily clear thinkers. That wouldn’t fit the narrative set before he was ID’d.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/09/15/trump-plans-crackdown-on-left-wing-groups-after-charlie-kirk-shooting/86166121007/
We can get back. If I were a young, Democratic Senator, I'd make a public display of literally walking across the aisle, and shaking hands with a young Republican and boldly announce, "IT STOPS NOW. AND WE'RE GOING TO DO IT!" We have to do something different and we need actors who don't care about social media backlash and perhaps are even willing to give up their jobs. A fanciful dream or delusion but it's the only logical next step or we head into even more dangerous chaos.
Are there any young Republucans who would shake the hand of a Democrat? The young ones tend to be more radical and hateful than the older Republicans.
And the publicity around the attempt would be phenomenal. No standing there talking to a camera to draw attention to myself (al Ted Cruz and Cory Booker). And I'd keep my hand out until someone took me up on it.
If a young Republican politician were hoping for a long term political future they wouldn't be caught dead shaking a Democrats hand. The Right wing "main stream" media would vilify them as would Nick Fuentes, Lara Loomer and Joe, it would be political suicide.
I would find one or stand in the aisle until one came up to me. Again not sure if it's just a dream or delusion but we have to do something different and this is an opportunity. Sad that a murder of someone has to be considered an opportunity but so be it.
I think I would say that they simply get more attention. And we are helping by reacting to them.
If we turn that around, by taking control of the conversation- not by pushing back, but simply by changing the subject, we can begin to change how that conversation turns out. The right wingers but especially the trolls will try to take it back but instead of responding to them, we keep talking to one another, and include the people who will begin to be drawn in once the conversation starts feeling safe.
Believe it or not, this happens a LOT in our substacks and other conversation places. The problem is that too often we give up, or we react instead of moving on.
You do realize that the Republicans are changing the rules of the Senate in order to push through a bunch of Donald Trump's nominees.
Yep. Don't care. Doesn't change my mind at all. If I was a Dem in the Senate I'd do it. Not sure it would work but I'd stand there with my hand out until A Republican shook it and promised to work with me. And if no one did well then at least we'd know what our fate was.
I’m sure you realize periodically GOP and DEM senators or House members work on things together? Massie with Khanna for instance.
I very much doubt they want to join a photo op for social media devised by a Dem re: Kirk and peaceful co-existence. They sure don’t want the blowback — and I doubt you’d enjoy it either. The righties are busily doxxing & calling out anyone who criticized Kirk. They wouldn’t hesitate for a second to target anyone crossing them.
A moment of ‘silence’ for Kirk resulted in a row in the House. The WH has set a course. A very specific one on this. Getting along is not part of it. We need something more substantial to turn this ship around.
Periodically just isn't enough. And I never said we (politicians) need to get along. The point is that WE (not "they") have to take back control of the government and the only way is to do that is to get beyond "periodically". (I realize you were just using the word periodically to make a point. Pls don't take my highlighting it as a slight. I just wanted to my my point.)
Thanks. I don’t take it as a slight.
A handshake is a symbolic act. Where are all the GOP legislators who worked with Dems on a more regular basis? Gone or they’ve doubled on showing loyalty to maga. No one wants to be targeted with the meme to follow that moment, shaking hands with “the enemy within.”
I think the Dems need to agreed on a set of principles & devise a coordinated national campaign around them with a theme of ‘are you better off?’. Skip the ‘rage rhetoric.’
Something like: the US sank 3 Venezuelan civilian boats (or whatever the daily outrage may be). Is your life better now?
But to be effective there must be solutions for key things people care about. If you scroll down to the map that show DJT’s approval rating by state, you can toggle between 2024 and now. This is what is driving the doubling down by the WH. https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker
Perhaps we already know. When the Senate confirmed every single one of Trump's incompetent cabinet members (Hegseth, Kennedy, Patel, etc.) and then rubberstamped the Big Ugly Bill, it was clear where we stood. The Senate in Trump 1.0 could be sensible some of the time. That is gone. I do not hate them; I just want to work to make sure that none of them is ever re-elected.
There are people throughout the government and outside it who are pushing hard against those people. Instead of wringing our hands, we can do things to support those people: by validating them, letting them know, writing letters to editors, all those things we get so bored of doing but that work if we keep doing them. We add our citizen voices to the voices who are speaking out from within: that's a big noise. They are already pretty nervous. Let's make them more nervous.
To see why they are nervous & why the WH doubled down the attacks. He wants to be a wartime president - no matter how big a stretch - to get more power & reverse his ever eroding approval ratings. You can scroll down to the state map & toggle between DJT’s approval rating by state during the election, 2024 and now.
I believe we need to address those issues; ask if xyz (the new ballroom or whatever) makes your life better.
https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker
We can react (they win). Or we can begin our own initiative, and create an open space. Our choice. If we persist, they are going to start looking like what they are: obstructionists. We have to start making new rules that don't include baiting, reacting, insults. Those new rules will only take effect if we stick to them, whether in Congress, state legislatures, committee meetings, town meetings, everywhere.
We don't have to be loud, but we do have to be persistant and we need to support one another. I'm appalled that so many of us are pushing against one another, instead of recognizing that we need to try many things, and work together to figure out what works and what fits what we are trying to do.
Working with these people is not feasible. The Republicans have allowed dt to do horribly evil things. They do not want to have a dialog. This is a fascist regime, and Democrats need to start treating it as such. This is not Republicans against Democrats as it was in decades past when it sometimes was possible to discuss policy and ideas.
Kathy, I just posted this above where you may not see it, so I am going to post it here too:
There are people throughout the government and outside it who are pushing hard against those people. Instead of wringing our hands, we can do things to support those people: by validating them, letting them know, writing letters to editors, all those things we get so bored of doing but that work if we keep doing them. We add our citizen voices to the voices who are speaking out from within: that's a big noise. They are already pretty nervous. Let's make them more nervous.
As I noted above, I DON'T CARE. And demonizing the other/either side is the only bi partisan thing happening in our country right now. I am not naive and realize we have reached a low point that history will make clear. BUT WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. And my idea is all I could think of.
I find your words particularly wise today. Yes, we have to continue to commit to facts. You have a way of saying what needs to be said without inciting further rage. You clearly communicate the gravity of our situation, but you do not inflame it. Thank you. It is a very exhausting time, but we are lost and really not helpful if we stay in a rage. My candle of hope has been flickering lately, but I know I have to give it oxygen and not let it totally go out. thank you for helping with that. Got to keep moving forward in this sinister time. Keep shining the light.
Thanks for saying so, Maro. It is a challenge to maintain a sense of hope when things are and feel out of control.
Steven, I went through a couple of days in a funk. So went car shopping again (daughter chauffeur). Finally found the perfect car for my needs and in my budget, but doggone, somebody else had already bought it. Nothing I could do about that, so did the other errands. On the way home, saw the same funky RV, tagged, parked in a pullout that we'd seen coming down. Somebody had broken down or run out of gas and lost their home. I have an old house that keeps me warm and dry, I have relatives nearby, I have enough food, and I keep in touch with people in various ways that enrich me (and this substack is part of that). I don't have much more than that, and I'm bummed about the car, but my life is in control. The life of whoever was forced to give up on that old RV was already out of control and probably they were trying desperately to find a way to get back on track.
I think things FEEL out of control. That RV is proof that things are not what they should be. I was frightened after the assassination, as afraid as anyone that it had been done by a fanatic trying to be a hero.
But something nagged at me: both my parents were born into the Mormon culture, and both moved as far away from the cultural center as soon as they could in the 30s, when they were young. I grew up outside the culture but exposed to its history and belief systems by elders in my mixed family who'd gradually eased away. I grew up listening to their stories, and they did not sanitize anything. In my gut, I strongly suspected that what happened in Orem had emerged from some of those concepts still embedded in Mormon culture, especially in deeply religious areas isolated from the liberalizing trends in the rest of Mormon Country (which, btw, is also Indian Country, and still is- there's another story in that).
I was not surprised when the very next day, I was proven right- though this story was sanitized, it still showed the roots it came from. I am deeply sorry for the families of both these young men, but both of them represent the holdovers of cultures that have been part of American history for a long time, and both distortions of our beginnings.
The most disgusting was the about face by Trump and those riding on his distorted ambitions. At the same time, that about face and the fact that there is simply no avoiding the machinations they attempted to make this event into something just its opposite gives me hope that things are not as out of control as they seem. Trump & Co are having to fight too hard to maintain face and the appearance of power, and it's not going over very well. We may have just experienced a shift. I hope so. Today, things feel different to me, as if the arc we were on has finally shifted enough to change the trajectory. Let's work hard to make it so.
One last thing: sending a virtual hug to you. Thank you for creating a forum in which I feel safe saying what I just did.
.... that have been part of American history for a long time, and both distortions of our beginnings.
The most disgusting was the about face by Trump and those riding on his distorted ambitions. At the same time, that about face and the fact that there is simply no avoiding the machinations they attempted to make this event into something just its opposite gives me hope that things are not as out of control as they seem. Trump & Co are having to fight too hard to maintain face and the appearance of power, and it's not going over very well. We may have just experienced a shift. I hope so. Today, things feel different to me, as if the arc we were on has finally shifted enough to change the trajectory. Let's work hard to make it so.
(Sorry about that- that last part got cut off, and I'm too tired to edit it down so it wouldn't be so long.)
I recall in my yourger days whe the word 'propaganda' was bantered around on the news it was always in reference to rogue regimes like Russia, North Korea and others. Never did we ever think of it existing in our own media or political discourse. But here we are, on steroids.
Yep. So. Hm. Let’s see. Didn’t Kellyanne Conway, special adviser to djt, introduce the concept of “alternative facts” as if that was somehow a valid and viable concept, and as equally important as “just the facts, ma’am”? That sure turned out well.
And now people claim that “their truth” is “THE TRUTH” instead of, let’s say, a personal opinion. Sounds like BS, (or propaganda), to me.
Meanwhile, enters AI, stage right, and well, it gets a little dicey, like we’re in an extended episode of the “twilight zone”.
Sigh…
What I have found the most productive, is to ask gentle, sincere QUESTIONS, from a genuine CURIOSITY. It has a way of refocusing their attention to what they KNOW, instead of the TALKING POINTS they are perhaps repeating.
Valuable thought. Thanks.
I'm glad that worked for you, but thus far, it hasn't worked for me.
^^ This especially
I don't think we can get back to reason and truth until we have consensus from the Fourth Estate to factual reporting:
1) Stop sane-washing the Felon's speech.
2) Report FACTS without opinion,
3) Stop "both sides-ism." Again, use factual evidence to report events as they are, no matter who is involved.
4) Return the Fairness Doctrine: if one side runs BS ads, the other side must have equal time to counter.
5) Pass legislation to fund communities to restart their local newspapers, again with true journalistic reporting, with opinions limited to the Opinion pages. Community newspapers used to be where everyone read the same reporting of events, a communal set of facts.
6) PLEASE RETURN CIVICS EDUCATION TO SCHOOLS.
None of these things will happen in the foreseeable future. The Republican Party has abandoned all principles and duties to their constituents to maintain a stranglehold on power. money is in fear mongering, and the main news outlets have bent the knee to the Felon to report only what he allows. Until the GOP has some people who regain their spines and honor their oaths to the Constitution, this regime will continue to fan the flames of violence.
When did the line become so blurry? Following is my reply to Steven’s post…
Yep. So. Hm. Let’s see. Didn’t Kellyanne Conway, special adviser to djt, introduce the concept of “alternative facts” as if that was somehow a valid and viable concept, and as equally important as “just the facts, ma’am”? That sure turned out well.
And now people claim that “their truth” is “THE TRUTH” instead of, let’s say, a personal opinion. Sounds like BS, or propaganda, to me.
Meanwhile, enters AI, stage right, and well, it’s gets a little dicey, like we’re in an extended episode of the “twilight zone”.
Sigh…
MAGA doesn't worry about facts. Lies, like bad news, travel further, faster and last a long time. Some, never go away. Besides, it takes a calm demeanor to articulate the truth, but lies you can yell at the top of your lungs. Picture J6 with small groups, sitting cross-legged, in circles, discussing facts; instead of busting windows, attacking policemen and erecting a gallows.
My initial reaction to Steven’s excellent post -
Yep. So. Hm. Let’s see. Didn’t Kellyanne Conway, special adviser to djt, introduce the concept of “alternative facts” as if that was somehow a valid and viable concept, and as equally important as “just the facts, ma’am”? That sure turned out well.
And now people claim that “their truth” is “THE TRUTH” instead of, let’s say, a personal opinion. Sounds like BS, (or propaganda), to me.
Meanwhile, enters AI, stage right, and well, it gets a little dicey, like we’re in an extended episode of the “twilight zone”.
Sigh…
Keeping clear focus on facts keeps us sane. Failure to remain in touch with reality is the very definition of insanity.
The election of DJT in November 2024 proved that a substantial minority of American voters had lost their minds. Another substantial minority did not bother to vote. Only a third of eligible voters showed sanity.
Insane people cannot govern themselves. They are not competent. (“Non compos mentis” is the Latin phrase.)
So, you ask the crucial question: can Americans still govern themselves, or are we lost to insanity and lawless tyranny?
Methinks we have officially entered the extended version of the “Twilight Zone”
And we can thank Kellyanne Conway for introducing the concept of “alternative facts, as if that’s some sort of valid concept equal to FACTS and TRUTH, instead of someone’s personal opinion.
Lying is as old as speaking. Yes, alternative facts”
Agree. In fact if trump’s lips are moving he’s (usually) lying. I think he told the “truth” when he declared he only wanted to be dictator for one day. The rest is history.
Yes. We must focus on the facts. The more wild the other spreads conspiracy theories, the more the truth is needed. Most people, and I talk with 100 people a week in my work, on day to day interactions just want everything toned down.
But a broader picture, is this about Mr. Kirk, or is this a reaction to the radical approach to politics that he inspired. Yes he talked to people in open debate. But yes, you can find his online videos spewing blatantly racist positions. He said, when he sees an African American in a job, he asks himself did they deserve it or are they an unqualified DEI hire. I can’t imagine walking around with that running through my head.
I saw him as a provocateur, someone who fires up his side. I feel for the loss of his family who lost him.
But I can also say good riddance to the hatred that he spewed.
The alleged shooter, Tyler James Robinson, comes from a Republican family, though Tyler is not registered to any party. His father is a retired sheriff in Washington County, Utah. There are photos of Tyler and his family with guns. Tyler Robinson dressed as Donald Trump for Halloween: a devout supporter, it would seem, who donated to Donald Trump in 2020. Tyler, we know, hated Charlie Kirk because he was not far enough to the right.
Grifting to turn grief into grievance, manipulating the many’s mourning, Donald Trump solicits rage that he can exploit for violence—before there is any proof the left contributed to the shooting. The facts do not matter to Trump. That is irresponsible leadership from Trump. Republican members in Congress mimic their leader in jumping to conclusions whose only foundation is a pack of prior Trump lies. They are all written Evans history tells us they are deluded cultists. Gross irresponsibility of this magnitude is criminal malfeasance.
It is Trump who constantly and vociferously demonizes the left with his rhetoric. He does not seek to quench the Nation’s anger, to break with violence. He seeks to inflame any given moment, stoking the flames well before investigation uncovers any facts at all. It is he and Kirk that traded in vile, demonizing, and inflammatory rhetoric designed to incite violence. They both traded in an inflammatory speech to monetize the anger they created. The cult no longer has the intellectual ability to rationalize the moment.
These two people monetized their hostility like the money changers they are. They gaslighted the rest of us whenever a fire broke out, and they simultaneously fanned those flames while pouring gasoline on the fire.
History dictates that the shooter will be a Republican supporter. They are all angry white men with right leanings. EVERY ONE! If you do not see that, yours is a delusional world. Have you paid no attention at all to the political and racist violence of last decade? If so, you know the party of violence. I gathered a list for you. https://hotbuttons.substack.com/p/bilious-hate-mongering?r=3m1bs
The best way to return to facts is for those of us who can discern what is factual to not give up and go silent. The cracks in the brainwashing on the right are beginning to form. Just put facts out there as calmly and non judgemental and kindly as possible. Over time, as people realize they are also damaged by this mess we're on, enough will wake up. It's already happening, but be patient with people. Deprogramming yourself from a cult is never speedy.
I think it helps if you choose topics they care about but that isn’t about a deeply held personal belief & lead with a question.
“If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it be all those than that people worry over it. … Give the people contests they win by remembering the words to more popular songs or the names of state capitals or how much corn Iowa grew last year. Cram them full of noncombustible data, chock them so damned full of 'facts' they feel stuffed, but absolutely 'brilliant' with information. Then they'll feel they're thinking, they'll get a sense of motion without moving. And they'll be happy, because facts of that sort don't change.” ~ Ray Bradbury, “Fahrenheit 451”
Today to our building group email I asked if others had found any places in our DC neighborhood to get COVID vaccinations with a script or if 65+. (Nope. DC is on the ‘no vax’ list.) Lots of alt suggestions until one person wrote a screed of “absolute facts” about the harm of the vaccinations.
The short answer is “no” because as others have stated, “alternative facts” are what this entire regime and movement keep putting forth. Yes, here others wrote with links to _real_ facts about vaccinations. Still given measles outbreaks and deaths, we’re too far away from reality.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” ~ George Orwell, in "1984"
The problem to overcome is that conflict sells, and it has to be amped continuously as people become accustomed to it. Kirk made his millions off of it. Limbaugh the same, and the Murdochs. Robert Reich, on his podcast this morning, recalled the early days of this, when he was on air to argue with a conservative. They ended up listening to each other and finding agreement. In his ear, the producer was yelling at him to fake a fight, for better ratings. Until there is no financial incentive, lying and hate speech are here to stay.
On the personal level you can make choices about whom to give $$ and votes. You can demand elected representatives enact laws to restrict the influence of money and hold accountable those who lie to the public. You can urge those you influence, as you do, to be fair and honest. This is not nothing, especially when there are multitudes doing the same. But we’re still a drop in the ocean compared to the billionaires who grow ever richer by the day when we’re at each other’s throats, literally.