Trump's Rising Hostility to Reality

In an Oval Office interview with Terry Moran of ABC News, Trump clearly expected this journalist—and every viewer—to swallow his lies. This is intolerable.

(Video capture from ABC News)

With the daily flood of crazy stuff pouring out of Donald Trump and his White House, you might have missed Trump’s ABC News interview with Terry Moran this week. I was particularly struck by a several-minute exchange about the photo of Kilmar Abrego Garcia’s knuckles (or so we are told), upon which the letters “MS13” are photoshopped in order to look like tattoos. This obvious fabrication is meant to prove his involvement in the Venezuelan crime gang.

All this poorly manipulated image demonstrates is Trump’s determination to bend reality according to his desire. And when Moran dared to voice his doubts about the photo’s authenticity? Trump’s frustration was on full display, as he now presumes that any journalist given “the opportunity” to speak to him should simply bow down.

This exchange follows Trump boasting about deporting criminals to El Salvador, while Moran insists that a president should follow the law and that includes providing due process for refugees such as Abrego Garcia.

(This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.)

DONALD TRUMP: Wait a minute. When we have criminals, murderers, criminals in this country, we have to get 'em out. And we're doing it.

TERRY MORAN: By law—

TRUMP: And you'll pick out one man. But even the man that you picked out—

MORAN: He's got—

TRUMP: —he said he wasn't a member of a gang. And then they looked, and—

MORAN: Alright.

TRUMP: —on his knuckles he had MS-13.

MORAN: Alright…there's a dispute over that.

TRUMP: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. He had MS-13—

MORAN: Well.

TRUMP: —on his knuckles tattooed.

MORAN: …it didn't say. Oh, he had some tattoos that are…interpreted that way. But let's move on.

TRUMP: Wait a minute.

MORAN: I want—

TRUMP: Hey, Terry. Terry. Terry.

Trump could have just moved on, but he was not going to let a journalist question the false information that he’s exploited to justify his illegal act. Moran pushed on.

MORAN: He did not have the letters.

TRUMP: Don't do that. M-S-one-three. It says M-S-one-three.

MORAN: That was Photoshop. So let me just—

Now Trump turned to his transactional assumption that anyone allowed to interview him should be required to accept what they are told. Didn’t Moran read the authoritarian playbook? Time for Trump to explain the rules, which include taking time to belittle his interlocutor.

TRUMP: That was Photoshop? Terry, you can't do that. He had—hey, they're giving you the big break of a lifetime, you know. You're doing the interview. I picked you because frankly I never heard of you. But that's okay.

MORAN: I knew this would come up.

TRUMP: But I picked you, Terry, but you're not being very nice. He had MS-13 tattooed.

MORAN: Alright. Alright. We'll agree to disagree. I want to move on—

TRUMP: Terry.

MORAN: —to something else.

But Trump refused to move on. He had to be right. He could not stand being questioned.

TRUMP: Terry. Do you want me to show the picture?

MORAN: I saw the picture…we'll agree to disagree.

TRUMP: Oh, and you think it was Photoshop. Well—

MORAN: Here we go. Here we go.

TRUMP: —don't. Photoshop. Go look—

MORAN: Alright.

TRUMP: —at his hand. He had MS-13.

MORAN: Fair enough, he did have tattoos that can be interpreted that way. I'm not an expert on them. I want to turn to Ukraine, sir.

Still, Trump would not move on. Now it was time to blame all journalists as “fake news.”

TRUMP: Terry, no, no. No, no. He had MS as clear as you can be. Not "interpreted." This is why people—

MORAN: Alright.

TRUMP: —no longer believe—

MORAN: Well.

TRUMP: —the news. Because it's fake news.

To his credit, Moran was not going to let the lie stand, especially now that he’d been demeaned as fake, even though he clearly wanted to move on to other topics.

MORAN: When he was photographed in…El Salvador, they aren't there. But let's just go on.

TRUMP: He is—

MORAN: They aren't there when he's in El Salvador.

TRUMP: —there. Oh, oh, they weren't there.

MORAN: Take a look at the photograph.

TRUMP: But they're there now, right?

MORAN: No. What.

TRUMP: But they're there now?

MORAN: They're in your picture.

TRUMP: Terry.

MORAN: Ukraine, sir.

TRUMP: He's got MS-13 on his knuckles.

MORAN: Alright. I—

TRUMP: Okay?

MORAN: We’ll take a look at it.

TRUMP: It is. You do such a disservice.

MORAN: We'll take a look. We'll take a look at that, sir.

TRUMP: Why don't you just say, ‘Yes, he does,’ and, you know, go on to something else.

MORAN: It's contested.

Get the last point? “Why don’t you just say, ‘Yes, he does.’” Only after accepting Trump’s lie would he be allowed to move on to the next topic.

Terry Moran does not win a prize for this exchange. He could have been more direct. He could have been less willing to capitulate to Trump’s pressure. But he made the calculation that he wasn’t going to let this exchange blow up his interview right then and there. Unfortunately, far too many journalists given access to Trump have allowed him to obfuscate and lie without pushing back because they want to get on to their next question.

But my point here is less about criticism of the media and more about the fact that Trump’s refusal to be seriously questioned will only get worse. This is the outgrowth of being handed near-total immunity by the Supreme Court, underscoring his belief in his increasing omnipotence and dictatorial powers, combined with insulating himself from reality with a circle of sycophantic yes-men perpetually buffing his fragile, narcissistic ego.

Note the gushing praise on Wednesday from the pathetic Attorney General Pam Bondi, sitting across from Trump in a cabinet meeting: “Your first 100 days has far exceeded that of any other presidency in this country, ever. Ever. Never seen anything like it. Thank you.”

If only Terry Moran had said that.

Instead, later in the interview, when Moran asked Trump whether he trusted Russian President Vladimir Putin, Trump took another chance to attack him. “I don’t trust you. I don’t trust a lot of people,” Trump told him. “I don’t trust you. Look at you. You’re so happy to do the interview, and then you start hitting me with these fake questions.”

This is not just about media attacks by Trump. We should particularly expect more efforts by Trump to quash honest depiction of the harm his tariffs are and will continue to cause to the American economy and American people.

After Punchbowl News ran a story saying that Amazon intended to list how much tariffs are adding to the prices of its products, Trump propagandist Karoline Leavitt said she spoke to Trump and he called the plan “a hostile and political act by Amazon.”

Later, after Trump called Jeff Bezos, billionaire owner of Amazon and The Washington Post, he was singing a different tune. Amazon stated that they never planned to do that listing for all of Amazon’s site.

Maybe, maybe not. But clearly the capitulating Bezos had said what Trump wanted to hear.

“Jeff Bezos is very nice. Terrific,” Trump reportedly said. “He solved the problem very quickly. He did the right thing. Good guy.”

Think what nice things Trump might have said about Terry Moran if he had capitulated. But sometimes the truth needs to win out, even when the Oval Office is occupied by an immunized pathological liar who thinks everyone should kowtow to him and accept his fabricated version of reality.

And if we don’t fight to demand the truth, America will keep being fed nonsense like this: Asked by a Time magazine interviewer last week about the status of the promised tariff deals, Trump claimed he’s already made 200 of them—even though not a single one has been announced.

“You’ve made 200 deals?” the reporter asked.

“100 percent,” Trump answered.

Believe him? I don’t.

Please consider becoming a paid subscriber for $50 a year or just $5 a month, if you’re not already. This helps sustain and expand the work of America, America, keeps nearly all the content free for everyone and gives you full access to the comment sections.