In yesterday’s post, I shared with you numbers following Tuesday’s debate in which Kamala Harris beat (and beat and beat) Donald Trump. Those numbers included new money raised in the first 24 hours ($47.1 million) and flash polling of who won the showdown (Harris over Trump 63 to 37 percent). But I went back into the Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted Sept. 10-12 and found several interesting additional insights beyond the overall measure that the race is now Harris at 47 percent and Trump at 42 percent nationally. According to the snapshot survey, registered voters who watched the debate or heard something about it told the pollsters that Kamala Harris:
made them more hopeful about the future (47 percent vs. 35 percent for Trump)
appeared to have higher moral integrity (52 percent vs. 29 percent)
appeared more dignified (56 vs. 26)
seemed like someone who would listen and understand their concerns (49 vs. 33)
On policy priorities, the polling found a virtual tie over who would prioritize “creating an economic climate that is good for them and their family” (43 to 42 percent Harris over Trump). But it did find that voters say Harris would work to decrease gun violence (48 vs. 27), make it possible to receive good, affordable healthcare (46 vs. 31), make necessary changes in Social Security and Medicare to keep these programs stable (45 vs. 34), and increase taxes on people and businesses who haven’t paid their fair share (54 vs. 20). One red flag: Respondents said Trump would prioritize lowering prices on everyday items like gas and groceries (43 Trump vs. 36 Harris).
There’s no question that policy issues such as access to abortion and securing reproductive freedom, which were not directly measured, and fears over inflation and prices will be strong determinants for many voters. But I believe the questions of character and the overall trajectory of the country’s future offered by each candidate will be critical when voters are filling out their ballots—and there’s little doubt who holds that edge.
One other thing: While social media has been lit up with amusing videos and other memes about Trump’s ridiculous and ugly assertion that Haitian immigrants are eating cats and dogs, we have seen in the last days that these despicable lies have led to bomb threats and school evacuations in Springfield, Ohio. This is the hateful future of conflict and violence that Trump—who has doubled down on these grotesque anti-immigrant lies since the debate—is promising. And after VP Harris’ demolition of him Tuesday night, I believe Trump will become even more unhinged as he struggles psychologically with the aftershock of his humiliating thrashing from a brilliant, capable, fearless Black woman. With less than two months before poll workers will be tallying votes, the debate’s impact will continue to be felt as voters solidify their perceptions and intentions.
What do you think? Can one debate decide the outcome of the election? Was Kamala Harris’ successful confrontation of Trump strong enough to stick with the 67 million viewers who tuned in and influence their decision-making? Despite Trump insisting now he won’t do another debate, do you think a second one would be helpful for the Harris campaign? Lastly, in the long run, which will you most remember among the two influential debates: Biden-Trump or Harris-Trump?
As always, I look forward to reading your observations and the opportunity for this community to hear from each other. Please do be respectful in your comments. Trolling will not be tolerated.
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*Photo: Watching the Sept. 10 debate. Photo by Alex Wong via Getty Images.
That and the hopes that this demonstrably corrupt, accountable to nobody SCOTUS doesn't somehow find a Harris win "unconstitutional," (like they discovered Prez immunity IN the Constitution.)
“estimate the number of votes illegally cast by non-citizens in the battleground states of the 2020 election”
The key word here is estimate.
They do not know. Produce an actual living, breathing undocumented human beings who voted illegally. If there’s that many, as it states, it shouldn’t be that difficult.
The simple truth is you cannot prove, in a court of law, it’s happened.
Do I think we should have tighter voting laws? Perhaps. However, Congress and Christopher Krebs, the director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency stated that the 2020 election was THE most secure election in the history of the USA.
Here in the state of Ohio, we have to produce a voter ID.
voting laws are left up to each individual states to hold their elections as they see fit. Unless the US Congress passes and provides for said laws, nothing will change to address this perceived problem.
Let’s see. An undocumented person gets a fake SS and drivers license for the purpose of voting? No it’s for working. Are they going to take a chance, albeit a small chance, of getting caught voting and then jailed and deported?
Not worth the chance.
If all these professionals actually produced living, breathing undocumented personal that are voting illegally, then I’ll believe it’s a problem.
Until then, I think it’s a completely overblown problem designed to suppress and frighten voters.
Why don’t you look up democracy docket where Mark Elias is fighting every damn suppression law that has been enacted since the 2020 election. At last count there are 500+ laws that have been put on the books since then. Do your own research, we have.
Plus I have a nephew and his wife who’ve lived down there for many years and have described how damn difficult it is to vote in that state. They’ve deliberately targeted African American areas. Took away places to vote so one has to stand in line for hours. But only in those areas.
Made absentee balloting as cumbersome as possible.
The GOP knows its days are numbered and will do anything and everything to stop Democrats from voting.
The sooner we get rid of Maga republicans and all their lies and racism, the better.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I am familiar with all of the voting laws that have been passed in Georgia
. I was hoping to have a discussion on the merits of a few of them. As I’m sure you are aware, my side feels that these issues are necessary in order to ensure honest and accurate voting. If this country needs anything at this time we need to have an election that people feel good about. We need an election where only citizens vote And where people can be assured, that elections have been carried out according to rules and laws.
Let’s start with just one of the reforms that were passed on March 1 of 2021 in Georgia. How about the elimination of signature comparison on absentee ballot applications, which is to be replaced by an ID requirement. One of the big issues in Wisconsin and Arizona and probably others has been signature matching on absentee ballots in 2020. Record number of ballots came in absentee. These ballots were adjudicated At a rate 10 times less than in previous elections. Why not allay those concerns and actually positively identify those trying to vote? America is almost alone among democracies in not demanding that voters provide any identification when they vote. For some reason, the American left vehemently opposes voter ID. It claims voter ID is racist and that those who favor it are engaged in “voter suppression.” This is prima facie absurd: Are airports racist for demanding passenger identification? Does passenger ID result in “passenger suppression”?
I Need an ID to verify who I am for dozens and dozens and dozens of much less important things that happen in this country. Will this place a hardship on a handful of people? Perhaps, but the confidence boost provided to the electorate will far outweigh concerns of those who claim id will make it too hard to vote.
How about hand counting ballots in a state with 11 MILLION citizens????
Why? What’s the purpose other than to delay certification?
Care to explain that ???
In addition, pray tell, Exactly how many votes were found to be fraudulent? Anywhere ? Not just in Georgia. How many?
And How many court battles did TFG lose?
60?
Voter fraud is not a problem. It should be easy to vote. Not difficult. No one should have to stand in line for hours. There should be voting boxes every few miles.
There should ample voting locations.
No one should stand in line for hours. The sole purpose being to discourage voting.
Here in the backwater state of Ohio, there’s exactly 1 early voting location for 1 million people. One.
I could go on all day providing more reports and evidence, but, you bring up the tiring claim about the 60 cases in the courts. You are mistaken in many ways here. For the large majority of these cases, there were no wins or losses. Evidence was never heard. The courts wisely decided not to hear the cases. There was no way that court cases could be settled in a time period that would not have brought more strife to the country.
Trump was actually only personally involved in two of these cases. One was in Georgia. In Georgia, a case was filed. Georgia law required that the case be heard in 10 days. The governor refused to let it go through in spite of the state law. It would have exposed shenanigans. Last I heard the case is still being litigated.
In the post I responded to, I brought the issue with non in-person balloting, and how, in the 2020 election, these ballots were treated very differently. In previous years, about 5% of these ballots are rejected because they are constitutionally unqualified. No signature matches is one of the biggest reasons. In 2020, the rate of negative adjudication was 10 times less than it has been historically, meaning a great number of non-constitutionally qualified ballots were allowed. This is yet another very strong indicator of fraud.
62% of Dems don’t believe the results of the 2016 election. 61 % don’’ believe the 2020 election. And you think we don’t need to worry about election integrity.
estimate the number of votes illegally cast by non-citizens in the battleground states of the 2020 election”
The key word here is estimate.
They do not know. Produce an actual living, breathing undocumented human beings who voted illegally. If there’s that many, as it states, it shouldn’t be that difficult.
The simple truth is you cannot prove, in a court of law, it’s happened.
Do I think we should have tighter voting laws? Perhaps. However, Congress and Christopher Krebs, the director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency stated that the 2020 election was THE most secure election in the history of the USA.
Here in the state of Ohio, we have to produce a voter ID.
voting laws are left up to each individual states to hold their elections as they see fit. Unless the US Congress passes and provides for said laws, nothing will change to address this perceived problem.
Let’s see. An undocumented person gets a fake SS and drivers license for the purpose of voting? No it’s for working. Are they going to take a chance, albeit a small chance, of getting caught voting and then jailed and deported?
Not worth the chance.
If all these professionals actually produced living, breathing undocumented personal that are voting illegally, then I’ll believe it’s a problem.
Until then, I think it’s a completely overblown problem designed to suppress and frighten voters.
Based on current population data from the Census Bureau and voting data from previous elections, Just Facts has conducted a study to estimate the number of votes illegally cast by non-citizens in the battleground states of the 2020 election. The results—documented in this spreadsheet—show that such fraudulent activities netted Joe Biden the following extra votes in these tightly contested states:
Arizona: 51,081 ± 17,689
Georgia: 54,950 ± 19,025
Michigan: 22,585 ± 7,842
Nevada: 22,021 ± 7,717
North Carolina: 46,218 ± 16,001
Pennsylvania: 32,706 ± 11,332
Wisconsin: 5,010 ± 1,774
If the lower end of these illegal vote estimates were removed from the vote tallies as of November 8, 2020, 2:00 AM EST, Donald Trump would be leading in states that have a total of 259 electoral votes, or 11 shy of the 270 needed to win the presidency. If the upper end of the illegal vote estimates were removed, Trump would be leading in states that have 285 electoral votes, or 15 more than needed to win the presidency.
These estimates account for just one type of election fraud, and they tend to understate it because they depend on Census surveys, which are known to undercount non-citizens.
Just Facts asked two Ph.D. scholars who specialize in data analytics to critically review this study, and they assessed it as follows:
“I find this research of great value—clear in its assumptions, clear about the sources of data used, methodologically sound, and fair in its conclusions. Furthermore, it contains enough references to allow any interested person to ‘fact-check’ every aspect of it.”
– Michael Cook, Ph.D. Mathematician, Scientific and Quantitative Researcher
“Instead of adding politics, vitriol, and bias to this timely, heated topic, this study provides a credible data analysis that supports a strong hypothesis of non-citizens having a significant effect on this election. Any serious critic should try improving on these estimates, as opposed to dismissing them with unproven claims.”
– Dr. Andrew Glen, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Operations Research, The United States Military Academy, and Award-Winning Researcher in the Field of Computational Probability
Pathways to Illegal Voting
All 50 states require people to be U.S. citizens in order to register to vote in federal elections, and federal law forbids non-citizens from falsely claiming U.S. citizenship to register to vote. However, enforcement mechanisms for such laws are limited, and opportunities to get around them are ample.
The federal voter registration form requires people to declare under penalty of perjury that they are U.S. citizens, but it does not require them to provide documentary evidence that they are citizens. Several states, including Arizona and Georgia, tried to implement such a requirement, but they were blocked from doing so by court rulings backed by the Obama administration.
The enforcement situation was aptly summarized by Barack Obama shortly before the 2016 U.S. presidential election when actress Gina Rodriguez asked him if “Dreamers” and “undocumented citizens” would be deported if they voted. Obama replied:
Not true. And the reason is, first of all, when you vote, you are a citizen yourself. And there is not a situation where the voting rolls somehow are transferred over, and people start investigating, etcetera.
After dodging the fact that Dreamers and undocumented immigrants are not citizens, Obama’s clear message was that there is no effective way to enforce the law that prohibits them from voting.
Some states require applicants to submit their Social Security numbers, but the vast majority of states allow for other means of voter registration, like submitting a driver’s license number, bank statement, or utility bill. These provide little-to-no evidence of citizenship.
Even if a state requires a Social Security number and actually checks it, this does not constitute clear proof of citizenship because many non-citizens have illegally obtained Social Security numbers. In 2013, the chief actuary of the U.S. Social Security Administration estimated that in 2010:
0.7 million illegal immigrants worked by using Social Security numbers obtained by using “fraudulent birth certificates.”
1.8 million illegal immigrants worked by using Social Security numbers “that did not match their name.”
The magnitude of identity fraud that would allow non-citizens to vote has been laid bare by:
a 2002 U.S. Government Accountability Office investigation that found:
“the use of fraudulent documents by aliens is extensive.”
in November 1998, immigration officials in Los Angeles “seized nearly two million counterfeit documents, such as … permanent resident cards and Social Security cards, which were headed for distribution points around the country.”
a 2005 New York Times article that reported: “Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card.”
the following statement made in 2017 by California Senate Leader and Democrat Kevin De Leon when testifying before the Senate’s Public Safety Committee:
I can tell you half of my family would be eligible for deportation under [Trump’s] executive order, because if they got a false Social Security card, if they got a false identification, if they got a false driver’s license … if they got a false green card. And anyone who has family members who are undocumented knows that almost entirely everybody has secured some sort of false identification.
Illegal Voting Data
In accord with the open doors to illegal voting, scientific surveys of non-citizens have found that:
15% admitted they were registered to vote in 2008, and 8% stated “I definitely voted” in the 2008 U.S. presidential election.
14% admitted they were registered to vote in 2012, and 9% stated “I definitely voted” in the 2012 U.S. presidential election.
13% of Hispanic non-citizens admitted they were registered to vote in 2013.
The consistency of these rates over time suggest that they are applicable to later elections where such data is currently unavailable.
Furthermore, those rates are merely for self-admitted actions, and database matches with voting and registration records show the actual rates are about twice as high. In 2008, the one year for which Just Facts has full data, 27% of non-citizens were registered to vote, and 16% of them actually voted. This 16% rate, applied to the latest Census data for the numbers of non-citizens in battleground states, is the basis for the 2020 estimates of illegal voting by non-citizens.
The 16% rate is partially corroborated by the 2012 data. In that year, 9% of non-citizens stated “I definitely voted” in the presidential election, and database matches could add another 11% to this figure. However, some of the people in the database overlap with those who said they voted, and the exact number of overlaps is unknown to Just Facts. If the overlap rate is the same as in 2008, the data would show that 17% of non-citizens voted illegally in the 2012 election.
The results of such studies have sizeable margins of error due to relatively small sample sizes, and these are reflected in the above estimates for the 2020 election. As is often the case with estimates of illicit actions where enforcement is sparse, there are other possible sources of error, some of which may produce overcounts and some undercounts. But given that the Census Bureau counted 21,749,984 non-citizens in the U.S. during 2019, even if only 5% of them voted, this would amount to more than a million illegal votes cast in the 2020 election.
Some media outlets and “fact checkers” have tried to contest the reality that substantial numbers of non-citizens vote in U.S. elections, but a multitude of facts from academic books and journals have shown that their arguments consist of mathematically illiterate notions, half-truths, and outright falsehoods.
The fact is that, among democracies, America is essentially alone in having nearly half its population mistrust election results. So, either America is cursed with a paranoid population, or there are valid reasons for Americans to mistrust their elections’ results.
There is no question it is the latter. America is unique among democracies in having half its people mistrust election results because America is unique among democracies in the way it conducts its elections.
America is almost alone among democracies in not demanding that voters provide any identification when they vote. For some reason, the American left vehemently opposes voter ID. It claims voter ID is racist and that those who favor it are engaged in “voter suppression.”
America is almost alone among democratic countries in not requiring paper ballots. As of 2023, only Brazil counts all its ballots in national elections through electronic voting. According to Pew Research Center, votes are cast by manually marking paper ballots in 209 of the 227 countries. In France, as reported by the Associated Press, voters “use the same system that’s been used for generations: paper ballots that are cast in person and counted by hand.” In 2009, Germany’s Federal Constitutional Court ruled that voting machines could no longer be used. In 2017, the Dutch government announced that all ballots in the 2017 general election would be counted by hand. Argentina hand counted 33 million ballots in one day. You ask why hand count. The reason is to ensure integrity. Computers, in spite of what we are told, are not secure and can be hacked. Ask any cybersecurity expert. Only 10% of democracies use computers to count ballots. Why not use a process that everyone can have confidence in? Do you honestly feel that Georgia’s Board of Elections voted for hand counting so that Republicans can cheat? How does delaying certification favor one party over another?
Moreover, among those countries that use electronic voting, only in America are the source codes of the voting machines kept secret. Three companies — Dominion, Election Systems & Software, and Hart InterCivic — control about 90% of the U.S. voting technology market. Each is privately held, and each is committed to keeping its source code from becoming fully public. Wherever else in the world electronic voting is allowed, the source codes are available to all political parties.
America is almost alone among democratic countries in not confining voting to one day. All through American history, Americans voted on Election Day (unless they had previously requested an absentee ballot). The left has obliterated Election Day; we now have Election Month.
Various American states are alone among democratic countries in mailing ballots to all their citizens — that is, even to those who never requested a ballot be sent to them.
America is almost alone among democratic countries in the length of time it takes to learn election results. In other countries, people continue to learn the results within hours. Throughout American history, Americans knew the outcome of virtually every election the night of Election Day. No longer.
All too often, tragically, there are valid reasons for Americans to mistrust election results. Add elections to the long list of institutions the left has ruined.
How many votes were fraudlent? Here are just a few of the reports and evidence:
It will be close but I think she does. The blue wall will hold AND are all governed by Democrats. I think NC, Az, and NV will go blue. Again, all Democratic Governors. And they’re not going to allow any BS with certification.
GA is in doubt due to all the voter suppression laws they’ve passed down there.
Only if we follow up to all the insanity spewed by #DonOld. One debate forced Biden out of the race, so why isn't MSM doing the same 24/7 hatchet job on Trump? Oh right, because 90% of all MSM is controlled by GOP billionaires who just want more tax breaks
So it is up to US-We the People to keep up the pressure by exposing his glaring deficiencies along with the dangers of #Project2025. Combined with getting out a vote "Too Big To Rig" this debate could be the turning point for Kamala & Walz
If 90% of MSM is controlled by GOP, then why is their reporting so heavily favorable to dems? Ie, look up how many articles by NYT and WAPO are favorable to Trump vs Harris. As I recall it has been something like 95% favorable articles about Harris vs 90% unfavorable re Trump. Or how about the 2.5 yrs of the fabricated Russia collusion hoax. Fully debunked by the Durham report and many other places. Or what about the MSM’s suppression of the laptop story and how they failed to fact check when 51 national security officials declared it was Russian disinformation? Also demonstrably a fabrication! I could go on all day! TDS is thick around here.
Thank you for sharing this vital information with us! What wonderful news! ["One red flag: Respondents said Trump would prioritize lowering prices on everyday items like gas and groceries (43 Trump vs. 36 Harris). " Oh, come on people! The orange sadist is owned by corporations, and the only reason that grocery prices are high is that corporations keep it that way. THINK!]
I have to constantly explain to people the reason that prices are so high. With the consolidation of grocery chains and fuel suppliers, and the obscene profits these industries are making - that's why pries are high. These corporations are taking advantage of us!
Exactly! tRump has NEVER done a single thing to help anybody but himself and his billionaire friends. He had 4 years to do so and did nothing - he doesn’t give a rats ass about food prices - and if people think they’re high now, wait til he imposes tariffs !!!
apart from Harris's idea (already in place in several states) to stop corporations from taking excess profits--trump's idea is achievable only by somehow meddling with the market. Price controls? I'm old enough to remember when Nixon tried that. To lower gas prices, he COULD be planning another pandemic: that's what made prices low in 2020.
On mergers (though I think this one is off for the moment): the Albertsons/Kroger merger would make EVERY CHAIN SUPERMARKET within reasonable driving distance of me owned by one company.
And the FTC was hobbled under tRump allowing mergers in the food industry which have dramatically reduced competition. Obviously food prices are on the minds of voters, yet MSM has done no reporting on this!
It was an absolutely horrible bill. The bill legitimized 2000 illegal crossings per day!!! The Republicans that Democrats say, changed their mind because of Trump, weren’t going to vote for the bill anyway!
Let’s stop looking at the debate and confront the real danger. Trump is setting us up to go along with mass deportations of dehumanized creatures who eat pets, spoil the blood of the country, spoke out against him, donated to the opposition, etc.
Look down the road. It is headed to a very dangerous place for everyone.
There is plenty of historical references of how mass roundups and purges are carried out.
No one will be safe. Roundups are not done carefully. There will be no one to appeal to if you are selected by mistake. Is there a neighbor who covets your stuff or a co-worker who doesn’t like you? What happens if they point you out for rounding up?
Even MAGA folk need to be scared of a purge.
Let’s stop debating on who has won the debate and talk loudly about what follows when a candidate dehumanizes, promises mass deportations and retribution of those he will choose. Think Hitler, Stalin, Mao.
The moderators did ask Trump what the “mass deportations” would look like. He ignored the question. I’d hoped they’d pursue it but alas Trump babbled his way out of any direct response.
It isn’t up to Trump to describe the horrors. We have generals, police chiefs and historians who can describe how mass deportations work. Oh, and how much will it cost to do this? Who will replace the workers that are rounded up? Let’s take him seriously. This is the most clear promise he has made in addition to tariffs.
"And ya know getting them out will be a bloody story," Trump told supporters on Saturday, referencing plans for large-scale removal of undocumented immigrants. "[They] should have never been allowed to come into our country. Nobody checked them." (Newsweek)
He said (not in the debate) that he would deport the LEGAL Haitians in Ohio to Venezuela! That’s not even where they came from. I always wonder where he thinks he’s going to deport millions of immigrants TO? What country would take millions of immigrants from here? I suspect they’d end up in detention camps. And we all know how that worked out for the Jews and others in Germany.
It is time to get graphic about what it will look like and be like if Trump Vance win and the mass deportations and retribution are carried out as promised.
Show what the protests will look like and the military in the American streets to control them.
It is a big negligence to consider what Trump promises as mere rhetoric and not a real threat to everyone.
Texas is following the Orban plan. The Hungarian dictator has been meeting with the Republicans to discuss strategy. Just look what he has done to Hungary. Abbott is an immoral monster.
Trump tried a variation of this while in office. For instance: regarding reporting on the 2018-2019 “caravans”. Journalists and advocates were
— The U.S. Government Tracked, Detained, and Interrogated Journalists. …
… the U.S. government tracked, detained, and interrogated journalists who were reporting on conditions at the U.S.-Mexico border. …
… On multiple separate occasions, border officers detained each journalist as they sought to return to the U.S. They interrogated the journalists about their coverage of the caravans of people traveling, and asked them about their observations of conditions at the U.S.-Mexico border, including in shelters. A couple of the journalists were also presented with a book of headshots and asked to identify people they recognized …
… A secret government database leaked to the public in March 2019 revealed that the five journalists were specifically targeted as part of a broad group of people including lawyers, a pastor, and immigration advocates working at the southern border. Reporting on the database also revealed that the U.S. government coordinated with Mexican authorities to monitor these individuals …
I completely agree with you. Trump and his team have already started the dehumanization process. Immigrants come from sh-thole countries and take our jobs . They are criminals thrown out of their own countries etc. Hitler did it very effectively to the Jews and other so called “undesirables” who didn’t deserve to live. Admiring authoritarian government is acceptable to many of the Christian Nationalist religions too.
The most fascinating question is the last one: “…which will you most remember among the two influential debates: Biden-Trump or Harris-Trump?” The two are inextricably linked—given we’re here now, one doesn’t happen without the other. Personally, I will never forget either—and I hate the fact tRump was in both. (But I LOVE how things seem to be turning out.) As for the other questions—Harris, appropriately, went on the offensive again to issuing another debate challenge. But she doesn’t need the next debate (I believe her strategists planned and counted on exactly how things are playing out.) Trump does, but won’t. Harris retained the upper hand—Trump was in a no-win situation, and Harris put him squarely there.
And she did remind Grump that he’s running against her and not Joe Biden. And she didn’t lower herself to the level of having to justify Biden’s term of office because it speaks for itself.
Thanks for sharing. Lot of good coming out of Tuesday. Trump becomes more unhinged by the day, which is scary. Bomb threats, etc. His rabid followers will not go quietly into the night.
The key for Nov 5 will be turnout. GOP will do its utmost to restrict voting, challenge counts, etc. We combat that by voting at historic levels. A landslide might finally end the stranglehold Trump has had on this country.
The rallies are awesome and great to see. But I’d love to see a few well placed 45 min interviews w Lester Holt, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Oprah Winfrey. Give her the chance to share her policy plans w the country.
She’s doing local interviews to reach voters where she’s campaigning and a NABJ interview. Her campaign says she will also have interviews on “nontraditional outlets.” So we’ll see.
Those corporations taking in price-gouging profits are Turd's donors! Plus, they're also mostly, if not all, Rich WHITE guys. Just make turd feel accepted, praise him--keep those profits coming in.
We've been watching this odious creature bully and bluster and get away with his lies for 9 years against everyone who " dared" to challenge him. Finally someone didn't cower or fail in an exchange with him. It was glorious. And the fact that it is a black woman ( who he both hates and fears the most) made it that much sweeter.
trump was NOT better on the economy. Gas and food prices plummeted because he used the pandemic for his own self enrichment and sadism.
The years before were a continuation of the Obama administration's economy. He simply rode on what already existed and then crashed it to a point not seen since the great depression. Why people think trump created a good economy or would ever be capable of creating one in a 2nd administration is a lie the fact that people still believe that is extremely concerning and frankly insane.
Low information voters or people who believe what they hear on Fox and friends. Poor education system and the dumbing down of America have contributed significantly to the irrational beliefs about the positive things Trump did. The only positive was he lost in 2020
I think throwing away the dog whistle (pun intended) has moved MAGA from the fascist to the Neo-Nazi range of the political spectrum. With the unabashed addition of undisguised racism they have become the Nazis.
“I believe Trump will become even more unhinged as he struggles psychologically with the aftershock of his humiliating thrashing from a brilliant, capable, fearless Black woman.”
While I believe that is true, what is going to drive Trump even more vicious and deadly is the inevitable jail time which he is facing. He knows that his only hope of remaining free for the rest of his life is to win the election and quash every case against him, through influencing the Justice Department and “his” Supreme Court Justices.
Good point. In the glow of the aftermath of Trump's clear humiliation I had forgotten that his desperation stems as much from the prospect of serving time as from losing to a Black woman.
Unfortunately, I do not think the debate put a fork in Trump. Looking pretty good, but it is a close election still. I think the odds of another debate are no more than 50/50. I would expect Trump to do better next time, but most likely result would be a draw. Two things are the biggest risks to Harris. A shock, my guess would be a sudden economic shock. And the electoral college works against her. She cannot really do anything about either. So the range of outcomes is now a narrow trump victory to Harris blowing trump out. Most likely outcome is Harris, Democratic house, and a gop senate.
Kamala Harris CRUSHED Donald Trump. 67 million people watched him melt down in that debate. He was out matched in every phase and on every question.
The moment Trump's entire persona as any sort of serious man collapsed when he started shrieking about pet eating people. It was utterly strident and completely unhinged. I wouldn't doubt that Trump actually believes that crap is true.
Reminder that Kamala actively WON last night. She did not have a millisecond of weakness that predator Trump could seize on. She is a prosecutor and knows how to handle criminals.
Trumped wanted some camera time and he basically spit insults and conspiracy theories the entire evening. He NEVER once addressed a question in it's context.
Literally, as this t-shirt says: "Kamala removed stubborn orange stains" last night 👇 🤣
The polling shows us the level of delusion in America, though. Her win was polled at 63-37% when to our eyes she wiped the floor with him. In a sane country it should be 90-10%
You are correct. But still, as Mr. Daskin noted, the contest is incredibly close. I doubt any Trump supporters were moved to vote Harris. The best we can hope for is that they will be discouraged from voting at all. On the other hand, it seems the atmosphere of the campaign has changed. Harris offers hope, Trump just more "American carnage." In the long run, hope is the stronger force. (Of course, in the long run we'll all be dead, but we can hope we live long enough to see the triumph of hope). One other thing: the election is now about Trump and his fitness for office. Trump will remain in the spotlight, as he desires, but that spotlight is becoming increasingly harsh.
Harris’ performance was better, stronger, more on the mark than anything I’ve seen. Will it make the difference with those Americans who look at a corrupt, felonious, lying, racist traitor and then at Kamala Harris and struggle to make up their minds? Hard to know. We’re getting a history lesson that none of us should want. I hope we make it.
It is amazing and sort of a mystery? No measurable increase in her support after the Convention or the debate this week. What is it? Cannot put my finger and facts on it? The “undecided” pipe in that they WANT to know more and DO NOT know enough about Kamala!
Rubbish! The woman has talent and is more prepared than anyone ever to be a candidate for President. The undecided may be lacking in talent and are unprepared to recognize a skilled leader when they see one? Or compare Kamala to Trump? Pathetic!
If the truth be told, is the undecided lack of support due to Kamala’s gender? To her race?
Thanks Steve. Elliot Kirschner also has an excellent post on time, past-present-future, influencing my response. We went into this debate with a lot of PAST tucked securely in our minds. Thus a lot of bias, judging from the polling. NOW we have to process this new information through the filter of our world-view... what do we believe about human nature, joy-ownership-protection-freedom? Or ego-influences-hope... that will effect a candidate's ability to create the kind of FUTURE we want?
Two thoughts: First, PLEASE, EVERYONE. Read Jessica Bennett’s fantastic piece today about the debate on Sub Stack! Second, today’s news included a revelation about how Neo Nazis, encouraged by Trump and Vance’s disgusting lies about Haitian immigrants who have legally settled in Springfield, have sought to disrupt society there and by extension try to win Ohio for Grump and defeat the incumbent Senator Sherrod Brown. It’s just another Laura Loomer day, I guess!
NPR reported a day or 2 ago they traced the hoax back to a comment in a Gab neo Nazi chat group. This is a newer hate group chapter that marched in Columbus in April and ‘protested’ in Springfield in August. At least once a member was removed from a public meeting in Springfield for disrupting it with racist rants.
Now they are bragging about the ‘power’ they have. The proof being their content used by the former president. The SPLC told the Columbus Dispatch to expect more of this in the Central Ohio region this fall. So, yes they have a political motive as well as recruiting goals in mind. Fear is their weapon of choice and there is real danger. A member of the Haitian community said windows were broken out and their vehicle had acid thrown on it.
I had thought at some point the House of Representatives would put a lid on it. But no, instead MTG drops the cats and dogs hoax in a committee meeting. The GOP keeps on keeping on.
Yes, we need to worry about that particularly in several states, (surprise, they are all in the South, GA and NC in particular for this election.) One might also worry about Arizona and Nevada in the Southwest. Texas probably ALREADY DOES suppress hundreds of thousands of American citizens of Mexican American heritage. I have seen the same thing in small cities like Dodge City in Kansas, where they closed all but one voting place in the center of town, not accessible by bus from areas two or more miles away, areas where Mexican Americans reside. This is not to mention college campuses in many cities in several states a mile or more from a voting place, where the option to vote is not offered on-campus.
Trump does not want the second debate since he is fearful of being bombed again?
Kamala Harris should agree to a Town Hall by the channel of choice! Let viewers send in questions that can be selected by moderators/station. Go it ALONE! People will hear from her in an unfiltered way? She would be the center of the stage and action? The last person she needs to appear with is Donald Trump! His expiration date is over, he is OLD, and completely lazy and uninformed!
The thought that tfg would prioritize food and gas prices is completely whacked. He has never bought groceries, let alone visit a grocery store or filled a car with gas EVER. Absolutely ridiculous people could believe this. They would have to be as crazy as he is.
Probably, the debate was one more nail in the coffin for Trump. I don’t think it’s knowable exactly to what degree it will impact actual voting. It will always be up to the voters to make the final verdict on Trump’s perfidy. The scary part is that there are still many millions of citizens who want to see that horrible excuse for a human in the White House.
Many excellent points made here with which I wholeheartedly agree. Harris was dazzling and had Trump on the ropes throughout. However, in addition to the looming voter suppression and electoral college hurdles, I am nagged by our need to step up and belatedly hold Fox + all right-wing media to account. So many low-, no- and false-info voters are in their grip, brainwashed. Some only ever consume lies, huge bias and MAGA delusions. And the blatantly lopsided mainstream media coverage and headlines. Recent "man on the street" interview: "I believe Trump. I don't think he'd ever lie to us." Mind-boggling. But it shows we must somehow burst into their insulated world with more advertising. Or Pete Buttigieg appearances. Thankfully, a few penetrating ads (Lincoln Project, perhaps, or Psycho-Pac) aired on Fox recently. We've seen SO little of that. Hopefully, the Harris/Walz war chest will step it up and no one will vote for Trump because they've never heard the facts and don't know any better. It's long enraged us that so many lies are unchallenged by biased mainstream media. Not least: the election was stolen despite zero evidence and 60+ courts ruling against Trump. And the post-birth abortion nonsense. Only in debate #2 was it fact-checked. Mostly it just sits there as if it were, oh I don't know, a fact. I'm counting on the campaign to still reach, if not the zealots, more new faces. It's way too tight for comfort.
Good questions - I think Debate 2 simply solidified it for many of us that VP Harris is the best candidate for President with her strong, clear-thinking, and ability to discern the dippy character in the opponent. It was so good to finally hear someone with clout tell him the truth (You are a disgrace.) that has needed to hear for years. I think I'm not alone in saying I would have voted for any opponent to Trump, but now I feel Kamala is the best choice all around. In October, I would like to hear a clear and concise speech from the Harris campaign, simply a reassurance that all is as good as possibly can be as we go into the final days up to the election. I don't particularly want to listen to any more out of Trump. As far as evaluating Debate 1 with Debate 2? Harris-Trump was far more memorable for more good reasons than Debate 1 where I sat, appalled and praying for Pres. Biden when he faltered and seemed ill, truly sorry that he had to be there enduring Trump. Kamala Harris proved to me that we are ready for a younger generation to take the reins and guide the nation.
The more “they “ come out with their baseless claims and lies- unfortunately so hateful and putting people at risk- the more I feel that rational people will start to really see the true world ofTrump/Vance. I anticipate a landslide victory for Kamala/Walz- and hopefully, all of the down ballot races. Come on, Montana and Texas- time to send a message!
As the debate and his recent actions have shown, Trump is a tired, old man. Though soundly beaten in the debate by a more prepared, principled, and energetic opponent, he hangs in for one reason... self preservation. Eking out a "W" may be the only way that he stays out of jail, ergo he's summoned "Hotel California" like properties: "... they stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast." With a growing army around her, Kamala must march on to (and through) the finish line, with a smile on her face, spring in her step, and a Christian Louboutin planted squarely on his throat.
Kamala has a growing army around her, while Agent Orange has what Steve Schmidt has called the "whack pack." The more focus on that collection of mental mutants the better.
I still believe a corrupt convicted felon should not be running for POTUS, much less be on a debate stage. Having said that, Kamala very adequately represented who she is, her intelligence, compassion, optimism, ability to construct/express a coherent idea. We’ve known who Trump is for 9 years now. Giving him another debate stage will only enable him to spew worse lies and conspiracies. He’s already done enough damage with the folks in Springfield.
One caveat, for people who aren’t really exposed to his mental deterioration, don’t attend his rallies, seeing him become even more unraveled, may help to take votes away from him.
Kamala out-Obama'd Obama who only humiliated Trump in front of the Washington correspondants. Kamala humiliated him in front of over 67 million. So Trump is beside himself with hate. Hopeful that he will lose the election. But he will never -- as we have seen -- lose his hate for Kamala.
I have a Trump-supporting acquaintance who told me that he is so disappointed in both candidates he’s going to write in Nikki Haley. So, yes, this single debate changed at least one Trump voter’s mind. I don’t understand for a nanosecond what disappointed him about Harris - and I don’t care because he’s already wrong - but the fact that he “can’t vote for Trump now” is a win.
No I don’t think one debate will win the race. Unfortunately, with all the gerrymandering and voter suppression laws put into place since 2020, we could win the popular vote and still lose the election (remember 2016?). MAGA is betting on the electoral college (why can’t we get rid of this 18th century boondoggle?) to bail them out. 60-70k votes in three states could make the difference. We have to vote in such large numbers that trickery will not prevail. Don’t forget there are a number of senate races that are also crucial. Winning the presidency is vital but we must win the senate as well. This is a precarious time.
“ Trump’s ridiculous and ugly assertion that Haitian immigrants are eating cats and dogs” serves one important purpose, that is to force the subject of immigration to American public. He achieved his goal by “lit up social media with amusing videos and other memes”.
That issue also takes attention away from his stance on abortion and other important issues like Project 2025. Tfg doesn’t believe we can walk and chew gum simultaneously, because he can’t.
I watched the JFK versus Nixon debate as a 7-year old! I was a JFK boy in ruby red Kansas and getting ragged on in 1st grade by all the other little boys marching lock step with Tricky Dicky! VP Harris had the best debate performance in American history bar none!!! She is already using Traitor Trump’s insane rhetoric from the debate in her campaign commercials and that will assist keeping Trump’s insanity in everyone’s memory for 11-05-24!!! VOTE ALL BLUE!!!
And don't forget the third one: Kennedy v. Nixon! I was a little child, but I still remember watching (hiding, because it was past my bedtime!) my parents and their close friends watching that debate.
The popular story about the Nixon-Kennedy debate used to be that those who listened to the debate on the radio thought Nixon had won, and those who watched on tv thought that Kennedy had won. You may recall that Nixon was unphotogenic, sweaty, and nervous, while Kennedy was vigorous, youthful, and handsome.
I do not think one debate will decide the outcome, but it helped VP Harris a lot. It helped people be assured of their choice to support Harris/Walz. It helped some undecided voters decide to support Harris, and it showed DJT as the unstable person that he truly is.
I moved from pro-Joe to pro-Kamala the minute he posted about her. Have donated, written 1000 GOTV postcards. My respect for her in debate went "Level Up" as she confidently named off many specific military weapons. Himars, X, Y, Z!
I don’t think there will be another debate. I don’t think Trump will risk it. I do think that the last debate will affect the outcome of the election, in favor of. Call Alice performance was so strong and shedelivevered her platform so well that I don’t know how anyone listening to the debate could vote against her.
I can’t believe they are so close in this race. I really think she’ll blow him away. It’s the down ballot elections that need tending to. We need the senate AND the house to be blue. 🤞🏻🤞🏻
No, but it certainly helps. Vice President Harris essentially controlled the debate from the opening handshake where she forced him to hear her properly pronounce her name.
In many ways, the debate isn't over. It's notable that some of the most telling blows against Trump were landed by Trump himself. Certainly Harris baited him and he rose to it every time, but he was easily his own worst enemy. In many ways, the debate hasn't yet ended as she continues to throw out slivers of bait, and he continues to take them.
Harris had already positioned herself well. The endorsements of so many members of former Republican administrations shore up her position as do the many A-list celebrity endorsements.
The upcoming Walz-Vance debate could be extremely important. While Vance is definitely smarter than Trump, his campaign trail awkwardness and Trump's continued unhinged rants place him in an extremely vulnerable position. That debate could add substantially to the Harris-Walz momentum.
Don't misunderstand. There is much work yet to be done. Trump, Republicans, and Trump's nefarious overseas allies headed by Putin and abetted by Netanyahu will do the best they can to provide an October Surprise.
I know we make fun of Trump for believing only the last thing he is told, but I think a lot of people do the same thing. People have a short memory. How else to explain MAGA’s belief that life was better four years ago? Voters in general will remember the debate when it comes time to vote, unless something else headline-grabbing occurs between now and then. That’s why it’s important for the Harris team to create ads that remind voters of the deranged and dangerous things Trump has said.
I wish Joe could find a way to use his 'absolute immunity' on the purveyors of this hateful, anti-American and deadly rhetoric right now that wouldn't backfire politically on the upcoming election. Perhaps the snake's head can't be cut off just yet, but certainly these minions who are showing up in Springfield to TERRORIZE can be taken off the streets?
A week after President Biden stepped down as a candidate and endorsed VP Harris, candidate for Virginia's 7th Congressional District Eugene Vindman, said at a fundraiser "last week we were motivated by fear. This week we are motivated by hope." That feeling of hope has energized a despondent Democratic ticket that has only gained momentum since.
President Biden is now, respectfully, officially a lame duck president. He is rarely mentioned or included in the news churn. The focus is on VP Harris and Gov. Walz and, of course, Trump. It is in this context that I can say that with the exceptions to the difference in the mood of the country prior to Biden's stepping aside to when Harris stepped up no one is remembering much about the first debate performance. It's all Harris and her stellar performance in the second debate.
There are so many of us who are clear minded about what a second Trump administration will bring. We are tired of the non-stop nightmare of his ceaseless media presence and the news feed surrounding him. We are tired of the name "Trump" and are associating that name to what it represents: indecency, cruelty, division, hatred, retribution, and, most important of all, loyalty to a disgusting man instead of our Democratic Constitution.
I wish the poll numbers weren't so tight. I wish there were overwhelming numbers that show that the American people as a whole are finally fed up and mobilized to remove this evil stain from our sight. But such is not the case. Far too many continue to support Trump no matter what. Most disturbing of all was a report that said that Trump had a 61% chance of succeeding at getting 270 Electoral Votes and thus securing his second term in office. Keep this in mind when the Harris campaign tells you that this race is neck and neck and that they are the underdogs.
Steven, if you haven’t had the chance yet to read Heather Cox Richardson’s Substack yet, please do so. That entire Springfield outburst by trump has been a work in progress by some neo-nazis in the area and Sen JD Vance. As soon as VP Harris baited him on his crowd sizes, he went off on his pet eating rant and completely fell off the deep end with it.
As far as people still bemoaning “the economy” it’s not far fetched to see that many just can’t seem to grasp the basic concept of supply vs. demand. Nor do they seem to understand how monopolies work against them. So they bitch, moan and blame. It’s maddening. Were they living in other parts of the world that haven’t recovered as well as we have here, they might sing a different tune. As for trump’s “concept of a(healthcare)plan”, that alone should cost him some votes. The only thing that will really matter is the election when it comes down to it. Republicans are pulling out all the stops to jam the entire voting process up. If voting weren’t so important, they wouldn’t be working so hard to screw it all up.
I don't think one debate can decide the outcome of an election, but I do believe that if all news media covered it fairly and highlighted several points that each candidate made, it could influence the people that didn't watch the debate. TFG isn't going to do a third debate; he knows he can't handle being on stage with a strong, black woman who truly knows her stuff and can stick it to him in such a way that doesn't come across as he does.
Another debate is not really needed, just a rehash of the “same old playbook” from Trump and another opportunity for the corporate media to attack Harris’ campaign.
Trump was stupid to talk about eating cats. I have seen several claims about this, but they are just rumors. More credible claims involve ducks and geese. There is one recorded police call reporting geese poaching. One resident I saw claims the ducks at the park have been decimated and another claims an attendant has been assigned to protect them. There are many cultures that eat dogs and cats.
However, the real issue in Springfield is the fact that 20K Haitians have come into a community of 50K in 3 years. Try to imagine persons with a different culture increasing the population of your community by 40% in that time span. Citizens are reporting being forced out of homes because Haitians have money from our taxes and can pay more. Landlords are reportedly charging more money to Haitians who will live up to a dozen persons to a flat. $400 per bed per month is one such report. Lines for welfare and healthcare have grown exponentially.
Ohio recently announced it is sending millions of dollars and troops to help with various issues. So you can blame Trump for the bomb threats, but unless a bomb goes off, Trump’s remarks appear to be a net benefit to Springfield.
The most agreed upon issue for Springfield citizens seems to be driving ability. Haitians can obtain a DL without any test of ability. We know no citizen has this privilege. Go to utube and see for yourself all of the accidents and even deaths that have occurred from Haitians who do not know how to drive. This has nothing to do with racism, although I am certain that most here will disagree.
The biggest issue re the debate is how unfair the moderators were. Muir should have let Harris challenge the pet eating remark. It was not his place!!!Trump was fact checked 7 times and Harris zero times! Even left wing CNN has discussed at least one falsehood by Harris and, of course, right leaning commentators bring up many. Clearly, it was 3 against 1.
There were not 20000 Haitians that moved to Springfield. It was more like 5000.
And the police department went back over 11 months of recorded calls. During 11 months, there were 2 calls about geese. No mention of who took the geese, people just noticed that the geese were missing.
And they didn't fact check Kamala because the one time she "lied", it wasn't a lie, but out of context. And if your right wing fact checkers were Fox News, you should take what they say with a grain of salt because they are not registered with the FCC as a News company. They have to register as an entertainment company. And they just had to pay out millions of dollars for lying.
And no one can get a license to drive anywhere without passing the tests. Please fact check before you post. Without fact checking, a person looks stupid.
One debate ended Joe Biden’s campaign because the press jumped all over his poor performance (despite his being ill and Trump’s deliberate use of the Gish gallop). Given Trump’s lack of policy responses (“concepts for a plan”), his unhinged statements on sex-change operations in prisons (and schools!) and his equally unhinged and racist attack on legal Haitian immigrants, that debate should have finally been the end of him. But no. The corporate media somehow seems to normalize his behavior instead of calling it the dangerous psychopathy it is.
I don't think Agent Orange can recover from his disastrous performance in the debate with VP Harris. She goaded him into showing the audience who he really is (most of whom already knew). I don't think there will be a second debate; his handlers can't/won't allow it. Trump cannot be anything other than what he is, particularly in his evidently declining mental state. He also can't shut up. So we'll be wading through muck for another two months. But the Democrats have to keep hitting him. The debate may have swung the Presidential ballot decisively in their favor, but the vote has to be in landslide territory if they are to have any hope of getting a more favorable congress.
The Biden-Trump debate was the most consequential in American history, until the Harris-Trump debate. I'll remember both, but VP Harris's masterful performance was unforgettable.
"Can one debate decide the outcome of the election?"
In 2024, the aftershocks of both debate earthquakes will have an echo effect more than any other election in the past.
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"Was Kamala Harris’ successful confrontation of Trump strong enough to stick with the 67 million viewers who tuned in and influence their decision-making?"
Kamala's sticking it to Trump will stick with many of the 67M viewers and their social media friends.
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"Despite Trump insisting now he won’t do another debate, do you think a second one would be helpful for the Harris campaign?"
If you thought the boost for ONE Harris debate was stellar ...
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"Lastly, in the long run, which will you most remember among the two influential debates: Biden-Trump or Harris-Trump?"
I'll most remember Harris-Trump, followed by a close second with Biden-Trump, without which there would've been no Harris-Trump.
Harris v. the convicted felon, definitely. Joe Biden's debate hurt my soul. He was treated terribly and with more disrespect than he deserved, even on his worst day, by people of all stripes. If not now, post-election, I will put away Joe's debate and replace that memory with the many good resulting from his consequential presidency. What a tower of a man. What a gift he gave us.
It would be a blow out if it wasn’t for the Maga GOP voter suppression tactics.
But I think TFG will lose. The debate was the final straw.
Now We need to worry much more about keeping the Senate majority and its control of the judiciary.
That and the hopes that this demonstrably corrupt, accountable to nobody SCOTUS doesn't somehow find a Harris win "unconstitutional," (like they discovered Prez immunity IN the Constitution.)
What are MAGA voter suppression tactics?
“estimate the number of votes illegally cast by non-citizens in the battleground states of the 2020 election”
The key word here is estimate.
They do not know. Produce an actual living, breathing undocumented human beings who voted illegally. If there’s that many, as it states, it shouldn’t be that difficult.
The simple truth is you cannot prove, in a court of law, it’s happened.
Do I think we should have tighter voting laws? Perhaps. However, Congress and Christopher Krebs, the director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency stated that the 2020 election was THE most secure election in the history of the USA.
Here in the state of Ohio, we have to produce a voter ID.
voting laws are left up to each individual states to hold their elections as they see fit. Unless the US Congress passes and provides for said laws, nothing will change to address this perceived problem.
Let’s see. An undocumented person gets a fake SS and drivers license for the purpose of voting? No it’s for working. Are they going to take a chance, albeit a small chance, of getting caught voting and then jailed and deported?
Not worth the chance.
If all these professionals actually produced living, breathing undocumented personal that are voting illegally, then I’ll believe it’s a problem.
Until then, I think it’s a completely overblown problem designed to suppress and frighten voters.
I ask again. Name the law and describe how this law prevents persons from voting, rather than ensuring votes cast are legitimate.
Why don’t you look up democracy docket where Mark Elias is fighting every damn suppression law that has been enacted since the 2020 election. At last count there are 500+ laws that have been put on the books since then. Do your own research, we have.
Brennancenter.org
Naacpldf.org
Simply type in Georgia voting laws.
Plus I have a nephew and his wife who’ve lived down there for many years and have described how damn difficult it is to vote in that state. They’ve deliberately targeted African American areas. Took away places to vote so one has to stand in line for hours. But only in those areas.
Made absentee balloting as cumbersome as possible.
The GOP knows its days are numbered and will do anything and everything to stop Democrats from voting.
The sooner we get rid of Maga republicans and all their lies and racism, the better.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I am familiar with all of the voting laws that have been passed in Georgia
. I was hoping to have a discussion on the merits of a few of them. As I’m sure you are aware, my side feels that these issues are necessary in order to ensure honest and accurate voting. If this country needs anything at this time we need to have an election that people feel good about. We need an election where only citizens vote And where people can be assured, that elections have been carried out according to rules and laws.
Let’s start with just one of the reforms that were passed on March 1 of 2021 in Georgia. How about the elimination of signature comparison on absentee ballot applications, which is to be replaced by an ID requirement. One of the big issues in Wisconsin and Arizona and probably others has been signature matching on absentee ballots in 2020. Record number of ballots came in absentee. These ballots were adjudicated At a rate 10 times less than in previous elections. Why not allay those concerns and actually positively identify those trying to vote? America is almost alone among democracies in not demanding that voters provide any identification when they vote. For some reason, the American left vehemently opposes voter ID. It claims voter ID is racist and that those who favor it are engaged in “voter suppression.” This is prima facie absurd: Are airports racist for demanding passenger identification? Does passenger ID result in “passenger suppression”?
I Need an ID to verify who I am for dozens and dozens and dozens of much less important things that happen in this country. Will this place a hardship on a handful of people? Perhaps, but the confidence boost provided to the electorate will far outweigh concerns of those who claim id will make it too hard to vote.
Voter suppression in Georgia?
How about hand counting ballots in a state with 11 MILLION citizens????
Why? What’s the purpose other than to delay certification?
Care to explain that ???
In addition, pray tell, Exactly how many votes were found to be fraudulent? Anywhere ? Not just in Georgia. How many?
And How many court battles did TFG lose?
60?
Voter fraud is not a problem. It should be easy to vote. Not difficult. No one should have to stand in line for hours. There should be voting boxes every few miles.
There should ample voting locations.
No one should stand in line for hours. The sole purpose being to discourage voting.
Here in the backwater state of Ohio, there’s exactly 1 early voting location for 1 million people. One.
But hey there’s no effort to suppress the vote 🙄
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/elections/least-5600-federal-only-ballots-cast-az-2020-general-election-without-us
I could go on all day providing more reports and evidence, but, you bring up the tiring claim about the 60 cases in the courts. You are mistaken in many ways here. For the large majority of these cases, there were no wins or losses. Evidence was never heard. The courts wisely decided not to hear the cases. There was no way that court cases could be settled in a time period that would not have brought more strife to the country.
Trump was actually only personally involved in two of these cases. One was in Georgia. In Georgia, a case was filed. Georgia law required that the case be heard in 10 days. The governor refused to let it go through in spite of the state law. It would have exposed shenanigans. Last I heard the case is still being litigated.
In the post I responded to, I brought the issue with non in-person balloting, and how, in the 2020 election, these ballots were treated very differently. In previous years, about 5% of these ballots are rejected because they are constitutionally unqualified. No signature matches is one of the biggest reasons. In 2020, the rate of negative adjudication was 10 times less than it has been historically, meaning a great number of non-constitutionally qualified ballots were allowed. This is yet another very strong indicator of fraud.
62% of Dems don’t believe the results of the 2016 election. 61 % don’’ believe the 2020 election. And you think we don’t need to worry about election integrity.
estimate the number of votes illegally cast by non-citizens in the battleground states of the 2020 election”
The key word here is estimate.
They do not know. Produce an actual living, breathing undocumented human beings who voted illegally. If there’s that many, as it states, it shouldn’t be that difficult.
The simple truth is you cannot prove, in a court of law, it’s happened.
Do I think we should have tighter voting laws? Perhaps. However, Congress and Christopher Krebs, the director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency stated that the 2020 election was THE most secure election in the history of the USA.
Here in the state of Ohio, we have to produce a voter ID.
voting laws are left up to each individual states to hold their elections as they see fit. Unless the US Congress passes and provides for said laws, nothing will change to address this perceived problem.
Let’s see. An undocumented person gets a fake SS and drivers license for the purpose of voting? No it’s for working. Are they going to take a chance, albeit a small chance, of getting caught voting and then jailed and deported?
Not worth the chance.
If all these professionals actually produced living, breathing undocumented personal that are voting illegally, then I’ll believe it’s a problem.
Until then, I think it’s a completely overblown problem designed to suppress and frighten voters.
In addition-https://youtu.be/TY1FMvhFDog?si=JJZrGWbXRZDCeSPt
From Just Facts Daily, 10/25/21:
Based on current population data from the Census Bureau and voting data from previous elections, Just Facts has conducted a study to estimate the number of votes illegally cast by non-citizens in the battleground states of the 2020 election. The results—documented in this spreadsheet—show that such fraudulent activities netted Joe Biden the following extra votes in these tightly contested states:
Arizona: 51,081 ± 17,689
Georgia: 54,950 ± 19,025
Michigan: 22,585 ± 7,842
Nevada: 22,021 ± 7,717
North Carolina: 46,218 ± 16,001
Pennsylvania: 32,706 ± 11,332
Wisconsin: 5,010 ± 1,774
If the lower end of these illegal vote estimates were removed from the vote tallies as of November 8, 2020, 2:00 AM EST, Donald Trump would be leading in states that have a total of 259 electoral votes, or 11 shy of the 270 needed to win the presidency. If the upper end of the illegal vote estimates were removed, Trump would be leading in states that have 285 electoral votes, or 15 more than needed to win the presidency.
These estimates account for just one type of election fraud, and they tend to understate it because they depend on Census surveys, which are known to undercount non-citizens.
Just Facts asked two Ph.D. scholars who specialize in data analytics to critically review this study, and they assessed it as follows:
“I find this research of great value—clear in its assumptions, clear about the sources of data used, methodologically sound, and fair in its conclusions. Furthermore, it contains enough references to allow any interested person to ‘fact-check’ every aspect of it.”
– Michael Cook, Ph.D. Mathematician, Scientific and Quantitative Researcher
“Instead of adding politics, vitriol, and bias to this timely, heated topic, this study provides a credible data analysis that supports a strong hypothesis of non-citizens having a significant effect on this election. Any serious critic should try improving on these estimates, as opposed to dismissing them with unproven claims.”
– Dr. Andrew Glen, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Operations Research, The United States Military Academy, and Award-Winning Researcher in the Field of Computational Probability
Pathways to Illegal Voting
All 50 states require people to be U.S. citizens in order to register to vote in federal elections, and federal law forbids non-citizens from falsely claiming U.S. citizenship to register to vote. However, enforcement mechanisms for such laws are limited, and opportunities to get around them are ample.
The federal voter registration form requires people to declare under penalty of perjury that they are U.S. citizens, but it does not require them to provide documentary evidence that they are citizens. Several states, including Arizona and Georgia, tried to implement such a requirement, but they were blocked from doing so by court rulings backed by the Obama administration.
The enforcement situation was aptly summarized by Barack Obama shortly before the 2016 U.S. presidential election when actress Gina Rodriguez asked him if “Dreamers” and “undocumented citizens” would be deported if they voted. Obama replied:
Not true. And the reason is, first of all, when you vote, you are a citizen yourself. And there is not a situation where the voting rolls somehow are transferred over, and people start investigating, etcetera.
After dodging the fact that Dreamers and undocumented immigrants are not citizens, Obama’s clear message was that there is no effective way to enforce the law that prohibits them from voting.
Some states require applicants to submit their Social Security numbers, but the vast majority of states allow for other means of voter registration, like submitting a driver’s license number, bank statement, or utility bill. These provide little-to-no evidence of citizenship.
Even if a state requires a Social Security number and actually checks it, this does not constitute clear proof of citizenship because many non-citizens have illegally obtained Social Security numbers. In 2013, the chief actuary of the U.S. Social Security Administration estimated that in 2010:
0.7 million illegal immigrants worked by using Social Security numbers obtained by using “fraudulent birth certificates.”
1.8 million illegal immigrants worked by using Social Security numbers “that did not match their name.”
The magnitude of identity fraud that would allow non-citizens to vote has been laid bare by:
a 2002 U.S. Government Accountability Office investigation that found:
“the use of fraudulent documents by aliens is extensive.”
in November 1998, immigration officials in Los Angeles “seized nearly two million counterfeit documents, such as … permanent resident cards and Social Security cards, which were headed for distribution points around the country.”
a 2005 New York Times article that reported: “Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card.”
the following statement made in 2017 by California Senate Leader and Democrat Kevin De Leon when testifying before the Senate’s Public Safety Committee:
I can tell you half of my family would be eligible for deportation under [Trump’s] executive order, because if they got a false Social Security card, if they got a false identification, if they got a false driver’s license … if they got a false green card. And anyone who has family members who are undocumented knows that almost entirely everybody has secured some sort of false identification.
Illegal Voting Data
In accord with the open doors to illegal voting, scientific surveys of non-citizens have found that:
15% admitted they were registered to vote in 2008, and 8% stated “I definitely voted” in the 2008 U.S. presidential election.
14% admitted they were registered to vote in 2012, and 9% stated “I definitely voted” in the 2012 U.S. presidential election.
13% of Hispanic non-citizens admitted they were registered to vote in 2013.
The consistency of these rates over time suggest that they are applicable to later elections where such data is currently unavailable.
Furthermore, those rates are merely for self-admitted actions, and database matches with voting and registration records show the actual rates are about twice as high. In 2008, the one year for which Just Facts has full data, 27% of non-citizens were registered to vote, and 16% of them actually voted. This 16% rate, applied to the latest Census data for the numbers of non-citizens in battleground states, is the basis for the 2020 estimates of illegal voting by non-citizens.
The 16% rate is partially corroborated by the 2012 data. In that year, 9% of non-citizens stated “I definitely voted” in the presidential election, and database matches could add another 11% to this figure. However, some of the people in the database overlap with those who said they voted, and the exact number of overlaps is unknown to Just Facts. If the overlap rate is the same as in 2008, the data would show that 17% of non-citizens voted illegally in the 2012 election.
The results of such studies have sizeable margins of error due to relatively small sample sizes, and these are reflected in the above estimates for the 2020 election. As is often the case with estimates of illicit actions where enforcement is sparse, there are other possible sources of error, some of which may produce overcounts and some undercounts. But given that the Census Bureau counted 21,749,984 non-citizens in the U.S. during 2019, even if only 5% of them voted, this would amount to more than a million illegal votes cast in the 2020 election.
Some media outlets and “fact checkers” have tried to contest the reality that substantial numbers of non-citizens vote in U.S. elections, but a multitude of facts from academic books and journals have shown that their arguments consist of mathematically illiterate notions, half-truths, and outright falsehoods.
The fact is that, among democracies, America is essentially alone in having nearly half its population mistrust election results. So, either America is cursed with a paranoid population, or there are valid reasons for Americans to mistrust their elections’ results.
There is no question it is the latter. America is unique among democracies in having half its people mistrust election results because America is unique among democracies in the way it conducts its elections.
America is almost alone among democracies in not demanding that voters provide any identification when they vote. For some reason, the American left vehemently opposes voter ID. It claims voter ID is racist and that those who favor it are engaged in “voter suppression.”
America is almost alone among democratic countries in not requiring paper ballots. As of 2023, only Brazil counts all its ballots in national elections through electronic voting. According to Pew Research Center, votes are cast by manually marking paper ballots in 209 of the 227 countries. In France, as reported by the Associated Press, voters “use the same system that’s been used for generations: paper ballots that are cast in person and counted by hand.” In 2009, Germany’s Federal Constitutional Court ruled that voting machines could no longer be used. In 2017, the Dutch government announced that all ballots in the 2017 general election would be counted by hand. Argentina hand counted 33 million ballots in one day. You ask why hand count. The reason is to ensure integrity. Computers, in spite of what we are told, are not secure and can be hacked. Ask any cybersecurity expert. Only 10% of democracies use computers to count ballots. Why not use a process that everyone can have confidence in? Do you honestly feel that Georgia’s Board of Elections voted for hand counting so that Republicans can cheat? How does delaying certification favor one party over another?
Moreover, among those countries that use electronic voting, only in America are the source codes of the voting machines kept secret. Three companies — Dominion, Election Systems & Software, and Hart InterCivic — control about 90% of the U.S. voting technology market. Each is privately held, and each is committed to keeping its source code from becoming fully public. Wherever else in the world electronic voting is allowed, the source codes are available to all political parties.
America is almost alone among democratic countries in not confining voting to one day. All through American history, Americans voted on Election Day (unless they had previously requested an absentee ballot). The left has obliterated Election Day; we now have Election Month.
Various American states are alone among democratic countries in mailing ballots to all their citizens — that is, even to those who never requested a ballot be sent to them.
America is almost alone among democratic countries in the length of time it takes to learn election results. In other countries, people continue to learn the results within hours. Throughout American history, Americans knew the outcome of virtually every election the night of Election Day. No longer.
All too often, tragically, there are valid reasons for Americans to mistrust election results. Add elections to the long list of institutions the left has ruined.
How many votes were fraudlent? Here are just a few of the reports and evidence:
She is favored by voters in national polls, but she doesn’t have enough votes to win the electoral college yet.
It will be close but I think she does. The blue wall will hold AND are all governed by Democrats. I think NC, Az, and NV will go blue. Again, all Democratic Governors. And they’re not going to allow any BS with certification.
GA is in doubt due to all the voter suppression laws they’ve passed down there.
Only if we follow up to all the insanity spewed by #DonOld. One debate forced Biden out of the race, so why isn't MSM doing the same 24/7 hatchet job on Trump? Oh right, because 90% of all MSM is controlled by GOP billionaires who just want more tax breaks
So it is up to US-We the People to keep up the pressure by exposing his glaring deficiencies along with the dangers of #Project2025. Combined with getting out a vote "Too Big To Rig" this debate could be the turning point for Kamala & Walz
If 90% of MSM is controlled by GOP, then why is their reporting so heavily favorable to dems? Ie, look up how many articles by NYT and WAPO are favorable to Trump vs Harris. As I recall it has been something like 95% favorable articles about Harris vs 90% unfavorable re Trump. Or how about the 2.5 yrs of the fabricated Russia collusion hoax. Fully debunked by the Durham report and many other places. Or what about the MSM’s suppression of the laptop story and how they failed to fact check when 51 national security officials declared it was Russian disinformation? Also demonstrably a fabrication! I could go on all day! TDS is thick around here.
Thank you for sharing this vital information with us! What wonderful news! ["One red flag: Respondents said Trump would prioritize lowering prices on everyday items like gas and groceries (43 Trump vs. 36 Harris). " Oh, come on people! The orange sadist is owned by corporations, and the only reason that grocery prices are high is that corporations keep it that way. THINK!]
I have to constantly explain to people the reason that prices are so high. With the consolidation of grocery chains and fuel suppliers, and the obscene profits these industries are making - that's why pries are high. These corporations are taking advantage of us!
Prices are high from printing money.
Exactly! tRump has NEVER done a single thing to help anybody but himself and his billionaire friends. He had 4 years to do so and did nothing - he doesn’t give a rats ass about food prices - and if people think they’re high now, wait til he imposes tariffs !!!
apart from Harris's idea (already in place in several states) to stop corporations from taking excess profits--trump's idea is achievable only by somehow meddling with the market. Price controls? I'm old enough to remember when Nixon tried that. To lower gas prices, he COULD be planning another pandemic: that's what made prices low in 2020.
On mergers (though I think this one is off for the moment): the Albertsons/Kroger merger would make EVERY CHAIN SUPERMARKET within reasonable driving distance of me owned by one company.
And the FTC was hobbled under tRump allowing mergers in the food industry which have dramatically reduced competition. Obviously food prices are on the minds of voters, yet MSM has done no reporting on this!
Harris needs to hammer away at the fact that Trump killed the border bill
Something like — You want a border bill? Trump kills them.
No, something like Congress had put together a bipartisan bill, but Trump instructed Republicans not to vote for it because it would hurt his campaign
That comes after you have their attention & is followed by “I will …”
It was an absolutely horrible bill. The bill legitimized 2000 illegal crossings per day!!! The Republicans that Democrats say, changed their mind because of Trump, weren’t going to vote for the bill anyway!
Let’s stop looking at the debate and confront the real danger. Trump is setting us up to go along with mass deportations of dehumanized creatures who eat pets, spoil the blood of the country, spoke out against him, donated to the opposition, etc.
Look down the road. It is headed to a very dangerous place for everyone.
There is plenty of historical references of how mass roundups and purges are carried out.
No one will be safe. Roundups are not done carefully. There will be no one to appeal to if you are selected by mistake. Is there a neighbor who covets your stuff or a co-worker who doesn’t like you? What happens if they point you out for rounding up?
Even MAGA folk need to be scared of a purge.
Let’s stop debating on who has won the debate and talk loudly about what follows when a candidate dehumanizes, promises mass deportations and retribution of those he will choose. Think Hitler, Stalin, Mao.
Agree there’s more to say on thus ugly issue of mass deportations.
The moderators did ask Trump what the “mass deportations” would look like. He ignored the question. I’d hoped they’d pursue it but alas Trump babbled his way out of any direct response.
He essentially ignored ALL of the questions.
It isn’t up to Trump to describe the horrors. We have generals, police chiefs and historians who can describe how mass deportations work. Oh, and how much will it cost to do this? Who will replace the workers that are rounded up? Let’s take him seriously. This is the most clear promise he has made in addition to tariffs.
He already told us.
"And ya know getting them out will be a bloody story," Trump told supporters on Saturday, referencing plans for large-scale removal of undocumented immigrants. "[They] should have never been allowed to come into our country. Nobody checked them." (Newsweek)
A local station’s video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agpEBGOEUco
He said (not in the debate) that he would deport the LEGAL Haitians in Ohio to Venezuela! That’s not even where they came from. I always wonder where he thinks he’s going to deport millions of immigrants TO? What country would take millions of immigrants from here? I suspect they’d end up in detention camps. And we all know how that worked out for the Jews and others in Germany.
It is time to get graphic about what it will look like and be like if Trump Vance win and the mass deportations and retribution are carried out as promised.
Show what the protests will look like and the military in the American streets to control them.
It is a big negligence to consider what Trump promises as mere rhetoric and not a real threat to everyone.
Use any picture of the Chicago streets around the 1968 DNC. That is what Trump and his string-pullers want to do.
I think the current Texas situation of hunting down Hispanic activists is prescient of what a Trump victory could be. https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2024-08-28/activists-fear-voter-suppression-as-texas-election-integrity-probe-hits-home
Texas is following the Orban plan. The Hungarian dictator has been meeting with the Republicans to discuss strategy. Just look what he has done to Hungary. Abbott is an immoral monster.
Trump tried a variation of this while in office. For instance: regarding reporting on the 2018-2019 “caravans”. Journalists and advocates were
— The U.S. Government Tracked, Detained, and Interrogated Journalists. …
… the U.S. government tracked, detained, and interrogated journalists who were reporting on conditions at the U.S.-Mexico border. …
… On multiple separate occasions, border officers detained each journalist as they sought to return to the U.S. They interrogated the journalists about their coverage of the caravans of people traveling, and asked them about their observations of conditions at the U.S.-Mexico border, including in shelters. A couple of the journalists were also presented with a book of headshots and asked to identify people they recognized …
… A secret government database leaked to the public in March 2019 revealed that the five journalists were specifically targeted as part of a broad group of people including lawyers, a pastor, and immigration advocates working at the southern border. Reporting on the database also revealed that the U.S. government coordinated with Mexican authorities to monitor these individuals …
https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/the-u-s-government-tracked-detained-and-interrogated-journalists-were-suing
Source: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Government Tracking Journalists and Immigration Advocates Through a Secret Database
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/source-leaked-documents-show-the-us-government-tracking-journalists-and-advocates-through-a-secret-database/3438/
I completely agree with you. Trump and his team have already started the dehumanization process. Immigrants come from sh-thole countries and take our jobs . They are criminals thrown out of their own countries etc. Hitler did it very effectively to the Jews and other so called “undesirables” who didn’t deserve to live. Admiring authoritarian government is acceptable to many of the Christian Nationalist religions too.
The most fascinating question is the last one: “…which will you most remember among the two influential debates: Biden-Trump or Harris-Trump?” The two are inextricably linked—given we’re here now, one doesn’t happen without the other. Personally, I will never forget either—and I hate the fact tRump was in both. (But I LOVE how things seem to be turning out.) As for the other questions—Harris, appropriately, went on the offensive again to issuing another debate challenge. But she doesn’t need the next debate (I believe her strategists planned and counted on exactly how things are playing out.) Trump does, but won’t. Harris retained the upper hand—Trump was in a no-win situation, and Harris put him squarely there.
And she did remind Grump that he’s running against her and not Joe Biden. And she didn’t lower herself to the level of having to justify Biden’s term of office because it speaks for itself.
Perfectly stated. It was a masterclass in debate skills.
Thanks for sharing. Lot of good coming out of Tuesday. Trump becomes more unhinged by the day, which is scary. Bomb threats, etc. His rabid followers will not go quietly into the night.
The key for Nov 5 will be turnout. GOP will do its utmost to restrict voting, challenge counts, etc. We combat that by voting at historic levels. A landslide might finally end the stranglehold Trump has had on this country.
The rallies are awesome and great to see. But I’d love to see a few well placed 45 min interviews w Lester Holt, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Oprah Winfrey. Give her the chance to share her policy plans w the country.
Yes, it’s turnout.
She’s doing local interviews to reach voters where she’s campaigning and a NABJ interview. Her campaign says she will also have interviews on “nontraditional outlets.” So we’ll see.
I just saw Oprah announced!
Probably, tRump has a "concept of a plan" for lowering gas prices and grocery prices. 🤪🤣
Those corporations taking in price-gouging profits are Turd's donors! Plus, they're also mostly, if not all, Rich WHITE guys. Just make turd feel accepted, praise him--keep those profits coming in.
Harris/ trump
We've been watching this odious creature bully and bluster and get away with his lies for 9 years against everyone who " dared" to challenge him. Finally someone didn't cower or fail in an exchange with him. It was glorious. And the fact that it is a black woman ( who he both hates and fears the most) made it that much sweeter.
trump was NOT better on the economy. Gas and food prices plummeted because he used the pandemic for his own self enrichment and sadism.
The years before were a continuation of the Obama administration's economy. He simply rode on what already existed and then crashed it to a point not seen since the great depression. Why people think trump created a good economy or would ever be capable of creating one in a 2nd administration is a lie the fact that people still believe that is extremely concerning and frankly insane.
Low information voters or people who believe what they hear on Fox and friends. Poor education system and the dumbing down of America have contributed significantly to the irrational beliefs about the positive things Trump did. The only positive was he lost in 2020
Re: the violent threats in Springfield toward legal Haitian immigrants - MAGA has become a terrorist group.
Alongside the Neo Nazis!
I think throwing away the dog whistle (pun intended) has moved MAGA from the fascist to the Neo-Nazi range of the political spectrum. With the unabashed addition of undisguised racism they have become the Nazis.
“I believe Trump will become even more unhinged as he struggles psychologically with the aftershock of his humiliating thrashing from a brilliant, capable, fearless Black woman.”
While I believe that is true, what is going to drive Trump even more vicious and deadly is the inevitable jail time which he is facing. He knows that his only hope of remaining free for the rest of his life is to win the election and quash every case against him, through influencing the Justice Department and “his” Supreme Court Justices.
Good point. In the glow of the aftermath of Trump's clear humiliation I had forgotten that his desperation stems as much from the prospect of serving time as from losing to a Black woman.
Unfortunately, I do not think the debate put a fork in Trump. Looking pretty good, but it is a close election still. I think the odds of another debate are no more than 50/50. I would expect Trump to do better next time, but most likely result would be a draw. Two things are the biggest risks to Harris. A shock, my guess would be a sudden economic shock. And the electoral college works against her. She cannot really do anything about either. So the range of outcomes is now a narrow trump victory to Harris blowing trump out. Most likely outcome is Harris, Democratic house, and a gop senate.
Kamala Harris CRUSHED Donald Trump. 67 million people watched him melt down in that debate. He was out matched in every phase and on every question.
The moment Trump's entire persona as any sort of serious man collapsed when he started shrieking about pet eating people. It was utterly strident and completely unhinged. I wouldn't doubt that Trump actually believes that crap is true.
Reminder that Kamala actively WON last night. She did not have a millisecond of weakness that predator Trump could seize on. She is a prosecutor and knows how to handle criminals.
Trumped wanted some camera time and he basically spit insults and conspiracy theories the entire evening. He NEVER once addressed a question in it's context.
Literally, as this t-shirt says: "Kamala removed stubborn orange stains" last night 👇 🤣
libtees-2.creator-spring.com/listing/votek
I don’t get how anyone under the age of 26 could need a reminder of how unfit Trump is for the presidency. 🤔
The polling shows us the level of delusion in America, though. Her win was polled at 63-37% when to our eyes she wiped the floor with him. In a sane country it should be 90-10%
You are correct. But still, as Mr. Daskin noted, the contest is incredibly close. I doubt any Trump supporters were moved to vote Harris. The best we can hope for is that they will be discouraged from voting at all. On the other hand, it seems the atmosphere of the campaign has changed. Harris offers hope, Trump just more "American carnage." In the long run, hope is the stronger force. (Of course, in the long run we'll all be dead, but we can hope we live long enough to see the triumph of hope). One other thing: the election is now about Trump and his fitness for office. Trump will remain in the spotlight, as he desires, but that spotlight is becoming increasingly harsh.
Oh! What a blissful outcome that would be! So much could be accomplished/turned around.
I sure hope so.
Well said Richard!
Harris’ performance was better, stronger, more on the mark than anything I’ve seen. Will it make the difference with those Americans who look at a corrupt, felonious, lying, racist traitor and then at Kamala Harris and struggle to make up their minds? Hard to know. We’re getting a history lesson that none of us should want. I hope we make it.
It is amazing and sort of a mystery? No measurable increase in her support after the Convention or the debate this week. What is it? Cannot put my finger and facts on it? The “undecided” pipe in that they WANT to know more and DO NOT know enough about Kamala!
Rubbish! The woman has talent and is more prepared than anyone ever to be a candidate for President. The undecided may be lacking in talent and are unprepared to recognize a skilled leader when they see one? Or compare Kamala to Trump? Pathetic!
If the truth be told, is the undecided lack of support due to Kamala’s gender? To her race?
BINGO!
Thanks Steve. Elliot Kirschner also has an excellent post on time, past-present-future, influencing my response. We went into this debate with a lot of PAST tucked securely in our minds. Thus a lot of bias, judging from the polling. NOW we have to process this new information through the filter of our world-view... what do we believe about human nature, joy-ownership-protection-freedom? Or ego-influences-hope... that will effect a candidate's ability to create the kind of FUTURE we want?
Two thoughts: First, PLEASE, EVERYONE. Read Jessica Bennett’s fantastic piece today about the debate on Sub Stack! Second, today’s news included a revelation about how Neo Nazis, encouraged by Trump and Vance’s disgusting lies about Haitian immigrants who have legally settled in Springfield, have sought to disrupt society there and by extension try to win Ohio for Grump and defeat the incumbent Senator Sherrod Brown. It’s just another Laura Loomer day, I guess!
NPR reported a day or 2 ago they traced the hoax back to a comment in a Gab neo Nazi chat group. This is a newer hate group chapter that marched in Columbus in April and ‘protested’ in Springfield in August. At least once a member was removed from a public meeting in Springfield for disrupting it with racist rants.
Now they are bragging about the ‘power’ they have. The proof being their content used by the former president. The SPLC told the Columbus Dispatch to expect more of this in the Central Ohio region this fall. So, yes they have a political motive as well as recruiting goals in mind. Fear is their weapon of choice and there is real danger. A member of the Haitian community said windows were broken out and their vehicle had acid thrown on it.
I had thought at some point the House of Representatives would put a lid on it. But no, instead MTG drops the cats and dogs hoax in a committee meeting. The GOP keeps on keeping on.
I still worry about voter suppression
Yes, we need to worry about that particularly in several states, (surprise, they are all in the South, GA and NC in particular for this election.) One might also worry about Arizona and Nevada in the Southwest. Texas probably ALREADY DOES suppress hundreds of thousands of American citizens of Mexican American heritage. I have seen the same thing in small cities like Dodge City in Kansas, where they closed all but one voting place in the center of town, not accessible by bus from areas two or more miles away, areas where Mexican Americans reside. This is not to mention college campuses in many cities in several states a mile or more from a voting place, where the option to vote is not offered on-campus.
Trump does not want the second debate since he is fearful of being bombed again?
Kamala Harris should agree to a Town Hall by the channel of choice! Let viewers send in questions that can be selected by moderators/station. Go it ALONE! People will hear from her in an unfiltered way? She would be the center of the stage and action? The last person she needs to appear with is Donald Trump! His expiration date is over, he is OLD, and completely lazy and uninformed!
Would love to see an hour long interview with Rachel Maddow. A Town Hall ALONE is a great idea too.
That would be FAB!
The thought that tfg would prioritize food and gas prices is completely whacked. He has never bought groceries, let alone visit a grocery store or filled a car with gas EVER. Absolutely ridiculous people could believe this. They would have to be as crazy as he is.
I think the price problem is having to show picture ID to buy groceries, especially bread.
Seriously, Kamala is the right person at the right time. Love Tim Walz too!
Probably, the debate was one more nail in the coffin for Trump. I don’t think it’s knowable exactly to what degree it will impact actual voting. It will always be up to the voters to make the final verdict on Trump’s perfidy. The scary part is that there are still many millions of citizens who want to see that horrible excuse for a human in the White House.
Many excellent points made here with which I wholeheartedly agree. Harris was dazzling and had Trump on the ropes throughout. However, in addition to the looming voter suppression and electoral college hurdles, I am nagged by our need to step up and belatedly hold Fox + all right-wing media to account. So many low-, no- and false-info voters are in their grip, brainwashed. Some only ever consume lies, huge bias and MAGA delusions. And the blatantly lopsided mainstream media coverage and headlines. Recent "man on the street" interview: "I believe Trump. I don't think he'd ever lie to us." Mind-boggling. But it shows we must somehow burst into their insulated world with more advertising. Or Pete Buttigieg appearances. Thankfully, a few penetrating ads (Lincoln Project, perhaps, or Psycho-Pac) aired on Fox recently. We've seen SO little of that. Hopefully, the Harris/Walz war chest will step it up and no one will vote for Trump because they've never heard the facts and don't know any better. It's long enraged us that so many lies are unchallenged by biased mainstream media. Not least: the election was stolen despite zero evidence and 60+ courts ruling against Trump. And the post-birth abortion nonsense. Only in debate #2 was it fact-checked. Mostly it just sits there as if it were, oh I don't know, a fact. I'm counting on the campaign to still reach, if not the zealots, more new faces. It's way too tight for comfort.
Good questions - I think Debate 2 simply solidified it for many of us that VP Harris is the best candidate for President with her strong, clear-thinking, and ability to discern the dippy character in the opponent. It was so good to finally hear someone with clout tell him the truth (You are a disgrace.) that has needed to hear for years. I think I'm not alone in saying I would have voted for any opponent to Trump, but now I feel Kamala is the best choice all around. In October, I would like to hear a clear and concise speech from the Harris campaign, simply a reassurance that all is as good as possibly can be as we go into the final days up to the election. I don't particularly want to listen to any more out of Trump. As far as evaluating Debate 1 with Debate 2? Harris-Trump was far more memorable for more good reasons than Debate 1 where I sat, appalled and praying for Pres. Biden when he faltered and seemed ill, truly sorry that he had to be there enduring Trump. Kamala Harris proved to me that we are ready for a younger generation to take the reins and guide the nation.
I failed to put the Biden/Trump debate in perspective: we have seen him debate twice. It is enough!
The more “they “ come out with their baseless claims and lies- unfortunately so hateful and putting people at risk- the more I feel that rational people will start to really see the true world ofTrump/Vance. I anticipate a landslide victory for Kamala/Walz- and hopefully, all of the down ballot races. Come on, Montana and Texas- time to send a message!
As the debate and his recent actions have shown, Trump is a tired, old man. Though soundly beaten in the debate by a more prepared, principled, and energetic opponent, he hangs in for one reason... self preservation. Eking out a "W" may be the only way that he stays out of jail, ergo he's summoned "Hotel California" like properties: "... they stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast." With a growing army around her, Kamala must march on to (and through) the finish line, with a smile on her face, spring in her step, and a Christian Louboutin planted squarely on his throat.
Kamala has a growing army around her, while Agent Orange has what Steve Schmidt has called the "whack pack." The more focus on that collection of mental mutants the better.
I still believe a corrupt convicted felon should not be running for POTUS, much less be on a debate stage. Having said that, Kamala very adequately represented who she is, her intelligence, compassion, optimism, ability to construct/express a coherent idea. We’ve known who Trump is for 9 years now. Giving him another debate stage will only enable him to spew worse lies and conspiracies. He’s already done enough damage with the folks in Springfield.
One caveat, for people who aren’t really exposed to his mental deterioration, don’t attend his rallies, seeing him become even more unraveled, may help to take votes away from him.
Agree
Kamala out-Obama'd Obama who only humiliated Trump in front of the Washington correspondants. Kamala humiliated him in front of over 67 million. So Trump is beside himself with hate. Hopeful that he will lose the election. But he will never -- as we have seen -- lose his hate for Kamala.
The good news is that after 5 November his hate for Kamala won't matter. Bleep him. His mindless followers will be the bigger problem.
I have a Trump-supporting acquaintance who told me that he is so disappointed in both candidates he’s going to write in Nikki Haley. So, yes, this single debate changed at least one Trump voter’s mind. I don’t understand for a nanosecond what disappointed him about Harris - and I don’t care because he’s already wrong - but the fact that he “can’t vote for Trump now” is a win.
Yes! Good news.
No I don’t think one debate will win the race. Unfortunately, with all the gerrymandering and voter suppression laws put into place since 2020, we could win the popular vote and still lose the election (remember 2016?). MAGA is betting on the electoral college (why can’t we get rid of this 18th century boondoggle?) to bail them out. 60-70k votes in three states could make the difference. We have to vote in such large numbers that trickery will not prevail. Don’t forget there are a number of senate races that are also crucial. Winning the presidency is vital but we must win the senate as well. This is a precarious time.
Yes, and flip the House. Hakeem, kick Mike's scheming faux-christian ass out!
“ Trump’s ridiculous and ugly assertion that Haitian immigrants are eating cats and dogs” serves one important purpose, that is to force the subject of immigration to American public. He achieved his goal by “lit up social media with amusing videos and other memes”.
That issue also takes attention away from his stance on abortion and other important issues like Project 2025. Tfg doesn’t believe we can walk and chew gum simultaneously, because he can’t.
I watched the JFK versus Nixon debate as a 7-year old! I was a JFK boy in ruby red Kansas and getting ragged on in 1st grade by all the other little boys marching lock step with Tricky Dicky! VP Harris had the best debate performance in American history bar none!!! She is already using Traitor Trump’s insane rhetoric from the debate in her campaign commercials and that will assist keeping Trump’s insanity in everyone’s memory for 11-05-24!!! VOTE ALL BLUE!!!
A debate can change an election. I can think of two examples.
First, the debate between Reagan and Carter with “there you go again”.
Second, in 2012 when Romney said Russia was our greatest threat. Though he was right, he was mocked and it became a game changer.
I think that as much as a debate is going to affect the election it already has.
I agree. I think we should quit while we're ahead.
There are two other significant outcomes in American history, the Lincoln-Douglas debates and the televised Nixon-Kennedy debate.
And don't forget the third one: Kennedy v. Nixon! I was a little child, but I still remember watching (hiding, because it was past my bedtime!) my parents and their close friends watching that debate.
The popular story about the Nixon-Kennedy debate used to be that those who listened to the debate on the radio thought Nixon had won, and those who watched on tv thought that Kennedy had won. You may recall that Nixon was unphotogenic, sweaty, and nervous, while Kennedy was vigorous, youthful, and handsome.
Yes, and he had a 5:00 shadow!
Two words Kennedy vs Nixon, ok three!
I do not think one debate will decide the outcome, but it helped VP Harris a lot. It helped people be assured of their choice to support Harris/Walz. It helped some undecided voters decide to support Harris, and it showed DJT as the unstable person that he truly is.
I moved from pro-Joe to pro-Kamala the minute he posted about her. Have donated, written 1000 GOTV postcards. My respect for her in debate went "Level Up" as she confidently named off many specific military weapons. Himars, X, Y, Z!
I don’t think there will be another debate. I don’t think Trump will risk it. I do think that the last debate will affect the outcome of the election, in favor of. Call Alice performance was so strong and shedelivevered her platform so well that I don’t know how anyone listening to the debate could vote against her.
This one definitely could decide the Outcome of the
Election!
We still need to fight to win!
It is only We The People who can save America!
Our voices! Vote! For Kamala/Walz.💙💙
When a sensational woman is running against a convicted felon with 34 indictments yet to be tried - YES, A MILLION TIMES YES!!!!!!
I can’t believe they are so close in this race. I really think she’ll blow him away. It’s the down ballot elections that need tending to. We need the senate AND the house to be blue. 🤞🏻🤞🏻
No, but it certainly helps. Vice President Harris essentially controlled the debate from the opening handshake where she forced him to hear her properly pronounce her name.
In many ways, the debate isn't over. It's notable that some of the most telling blows against Trump were landed by Trump himself. Certainly Harris baited him and he rose to it every time, but he was easily his own worst enemy. In many ways, the debate hasn't yet ended as she continues to throw out slivers of bait, and he continues to take them.
Harris had already positioned herself well. The endorsements of so many members of former Republican administrations shore up her position as do the many A-list celebrity endorsements.
The upcoming Walz-Vance debate could be extremely important. While Vance is definitely smarter than Trump, his campaign trail awkwardness and Trump's continued unhinged rants place him in an extremely vulnerable position. That debate could add substantially to the Harris-Walz momentum.
Don't misunderstand. There is much work yet to be done. Trump, Republicans, and Trump's nefarious overseas allies headed by Putin and abetted by Netanyahu will do the best they can to provide an October Surprise.
Still, I'm as optimistic as I've ever been.
I know we make fun of Trump for believing only the last thing he is told, but I think a lot of people do the same thing. People have a short memory. How else to explain MAGA’s belief that life was better four years ago? Voters in general will remember the debate when it comes time to vote, unless something else headline-grabbing occurs between now and then. That’s why it’s important for the Harris team to create ads that remind voters of the deranged and dangerous things Trump has said.
I wish Joe could find a way to use his 'absolute immunity' on the purveyors of this hateful, anti-American and deadly rhetoric right now that wouldn't backfire politically on the upcoming election. Perhaps the snake's head can't be cut off just yet, but certainly these minions who are showing up in Springfield to TERRORIZE can be taken off the streets?
A week after President Biden stepped down as a candidate and endorsed VP Harris, candidate for Virginia's 7th Congressional District Eugene Vindman, said at a fundraiser "last week we were motivated by fear. This week we are motivated by hope." That feeling of hope has energized a despondent Democratic ticket that has only gained momentum since.
President Biden is now, respectfully, officially a lame duck president. He is rarely mentioned or included in the news churn. The focus is on VP Harris and Gov. Walz and, of course, Trump. It is in this context that I can say that with the exceptions to the difference in the mood of the country prior to Biden's stepping aside to when Harris stepped up no one is remembering much about the first debate performance. It's all Harris and her stellar performance in the second debate.
There are so many of us who are clear minded about what a second Trump administration will bring. We are tired of the non-stop nightmare of his ceaseless media presence and the news feed surrounding him. We are tired of the name "Trump" and are associating that name to what it represents: indecency, cruelty, division, hatred, retribution, and, most important of all, loyalty to a disgusting man instead of our Democratic Constitution.
I wish the poll numbers weren't so tight. I wish there were overwhelming numbers that show that the American people as a whole are finally fed up and mobilized to remove this evil stain from our sight. But such is not the case. Far too many continue to support Trump no matter what. Most disturbing of all was a report that said that Trump had a 61% chance of succeeding at getting 270 Electoral Votes and thus securing his second term in office. Keep this in mind when the Harris campaign tells you that this race is neck and neck and that they are the underdogs.
Steven, if you haven’t had the chance yet to read Heather Cox Richardson’s Substack yet, please do so. That entire Springfield outburst by trump has been a work in progress by some neo-nazis in the area and Sen JD Vance. As soon as VP Harris baited him on his crowd sizes, he went off on his pet eating rant and completely fell off the deep end with it.
As far as people still bemoaning “the economy” it’s not far fetched to see that many just can’t seem to grasp the basic concept of supply vs. demand. Nor do they seem to understand how monopolies work against them. So they bitch, moan and blame. It’s maddening. Were they living in other parts of the world that haven’t recovered as well as we have here, they might sing a different tune. As for trump’s “concept of a(healthcare)plan”, that alone should cost him some votes. The only thing that will really matter is the election when it comes down to it. Republicans are pulling out all the stops to jam the entire voting process up. If voting weren’t so important, they wouldn’t be working so hard to screw it all up.
I don't think one debate can decide the outcome of an election, but I do believe that if all news media covered it fairly and highlighted several points that each candidate made, it could influence the people that didn't watch the debate. TFG isn't going to do a third debate; he knows he can't handle being on stage with a strong, black woman who truly knows her stuff and can stick it to him in such a way that doesn't come across as he does.
Another debate is not really needed, just a rehash of the “same old playbook” from Trump and another opportunity for the corporate media to attack Harris’ campaign.
Second debate would merely confirm how UNFIT Trump is for office! Trump would not risk it!
Trump cannot be measured next to a high capable woman, and a multi-racial one at that!
GO KAMALA!
But wouldn’t you like to remind potential Trump voters what a jerk he is? Won’t happen, and Trump knows it.
Thank you, though I mostly agree with you, I just don’t trust the corporate media to do anything fairly.
It already has.
Trump was stupid to talk about eating cats. I have seen several claims about this, but they are just rumors. More credible claims involve ducks and geese. There is one recorded police call reporting geese poaching. One resident I saw claims the ducks at the park have been decimated and another claims an attendant has been assigned to protect them. There are many cultures that eat dogs and cats.
However, the real issue in Springfield is the fact that 20K Haitians have come into a community of 50K in 3 years. Try to imagine persons with a different culture increasing the population of your community by 40% in that time span. Citizens are reporting being forced out of homes because Haitians have money from our taxes and can pay more. Landlords are reportedly charging more money to Haitians who will live up to a dozen persons to a flat. $400 per bed per month is one such report. Lines for welfare and healthcare have grown exponentially.
Ohio recently announced it is sending millions of dollars and troops to help with various issues. So you can blame Trump for the bomb threats, but unless a bomb goes off, Trump’s remarks appear to be a net benefit to Springfield.
The most agreed upon issue for Springfield citizens seems to be driving ability. Haitians can obtain a DL without any test of ability. We know no citizen has this privilege. Go to utube and see for yourself all of the accidents and even deaths that have occurred from Haitians who do not know how to drive. This has nothing to do with racism, although I am certain that most here will disagree.
The biggest issue re the debate is how unfair the moderators were. Muir should have let Harris challenge the pet eating remark. It was not his place!!!Trump was fact checked 7 times and Harris zero times! Even left wing CNN has discussed at least one falsehood by Harris and, of course, right leaning commentators bring up many. Clearly, it was 3 against 1.
Thank you to Bechloss for providing this forum.
There were not 20000 Haitians that moved to Springfield. It was more like 5000.
And the police department went back over 11 months of recorded calls. During 11 months, there were 2 calls about geese. No mention of who took the geese, people just noticed that the geese were missing.
And they didn't fact check Kamala because the one time she "lied", it wasn't a lie, but out of context. And if your right wing fact checkers were Fox News, you should take what they say with a grain of salt because they are not registered with the FCC as a News company. They have to register as an entertainment company. And they just had to pay out millions of dollars for lying.
And no one can get a license to drive anywhere without passing the tests. Please fact check before you post. Without fact checking, a person looks stupid.
One debate ended Joe Biden’s campaign because the press jumped all over his poor performance (despite his being ill and Trump’s deliberate use of the Gish gallop). Given Trump’s lack of policy responses (“concepts for a plan”), his unhinged statements on sex-change operations in prisons (and schools!) and his equally unhinged and racist attack on legal Haitian immigrants, that debate should have finally been the end of him. But no. The corporate media somehow seems to normalize his behavior instead of calling it the dangerous psychopathy it is.
Well, the Trump Biden debate may be the one that changed the course of the election, as it led to Kamala Harris as candidate and she is SMOKIN' IT.
I don't think Agent Orange can recover from his disastrous performance in the debate with VP Harris. She goaded him into showing the audience who he really is (most of whom already knew). I don't think there will be a second debate; his handlers can't/won't allow it. Trump cannot be anything other than what he is, particularly in his evidently declining mental state. He also can't shut up. So we'll be wading through muck for another two months. But the Democrats have to keep hitting him. The debate may have swung the Presidential ballot decisively in their favor, but the vote has to be in landslide territory if they are to have any hope of getting a more favorable congress.
The Biden-Trump debate was the most consequential in American history, until the Harris-Trump debate. I'll remember both, but VP Harris's masterful performance was unforgettable.
"Can one debate decide the outcome of the election?"
In 2024, the aftershocks of both debate earthquakes will have an echo effect more than any other election in the past.
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"Was Kamala Harris’ successful confrontation of Trump strong enough to stick with the 67 million viewers who tuned in and influence their decision-making?"
Kamala's sticking it to Trump will stick with many of the 67M viewers and their social media friends.
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"Despite Trump insisting now he won’t do another debate, do you think a second one would be helpful for the Harris campaign?"
If you thought the boost for ONE Harris debate was stellar ...
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"Lastly, in the long run, which will you most remember among the two influential debates: Biden-Trump or Harris-Trump?"
I'll most remember Harris-Trump, followed by a close second with Biden-Trump, without which there would've been no Harris-Trump.
Harris v. the convicted felon, definitely. Joe Biden's debate hurt my soul. He was treated terribly and with more disrespect than he deserved, even on his worst day, by people of all stripes. If not now, post-election, I will put away Joe's debate and replace that memory with the many good resulting from his consequential presidency. What a tower of a man. What a gift he gave us.
There is ... in political terms ... a long time before the election. Focus on trends. And efforts to persuade political moderates.