Judge Arthur Engoron ruled yesterday that Donald Trump must pay more than $354 million in penalties for committing fraud by using “blatantly false financial data” to borrow money at lower rates. He banned Trump from doing business in New York for three years and his sons Don Jr. and Eric for two years. His ruling asserted that the “frauds found here leap off the page and shock the conscience,” while the defendants “simply denied realty.” And more: “Their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological.”
New York Attorney General Letitia James, who brought the lawsuit against Trump, his sons, The Trump Organization and some of its executives, asserted yesterday:
“We are holding Donald Trump accountable. We are holding him accountable for lying, cheating and a lack of contrition and for flouting the rules that all of us must play by...This decision is a massive victory for every American who believes in the simple but fundamental pillar of our democracy, that the rule of law applies to all of us, equally, fairly and justly.”
To no one’s surprise, Trump posted on his social media site that he was fined for “nothing other than having built a GREAT COMPANY.” He repeated his tired claims of election interference, called the judge “crooked” and “corrupt,” and the case a “witch hunt.” Standing outside his Florida golf club, Mar-a-Lago, he exclaimed, “This is Russia, this is China, this is the same game, this all comes out of the DOJ, this all comes out of Biden. It’s a witch hunt against his political opponent, the like of which our country has never seen before, you see it in third-world countries, banana republics.” He also laughably asserted that the ruling would cause New Yorkers to leave the state.
So much for any public sign of contrition. But those who know him best see things more clearly. His niece, Mary Trump, called the decision “absolutely devastating for Donald” and wrote in her Substack newsletter that “Donald’s ability to commit fraud with impunity has come to an end—at least in New York—and believe me, that matters to him.” The Washington Postnoted that, while Trump can remain the owner of his company, he will lose control: “Engoron ordered that the company operate under the close eye of two overseers, a monitor and an independent director of compliance, to ensure compliance with financial reporting obligations.”
It remains to be seen how Trump will raise the necessary cash while his lawyers pursue an appeal. What properties might he have to sell to pay some $450 million (the fines plus interest) on top of the recent $83.3 million E. Jean Carroll defamation judgement?
And these are just the civil charges. As the start of the first of four criminal cases looms on March 25 in the hush-money trial, I think it’s useful to reflect: Does this newest ruling feel like accountability? Does it give you increased confidence that the courts will not let Trump off the hook because he occupied the White House? Despite all the usual brazen denials of responsibility, do you think the cumulative impact of these court cases might finally take a toll on him? Or does this all still feel like too little too late—that justice delayed is justice denied—as the calendar proceeds toward the 2024 presidential election and this man continues to pursue the presidency again?
I look forward as always to reading your responses and the chance for this community to learn from each other. Please do know that trolling will not be permitted.
If you’re not already, please consider becoming a paid subscriber for just $5 a month or $50 a year. This helps sustain and expand the work of America, America, keep nearly all the content free for everyone and give you full access to the comments sections.
*Photo: Judge Arthur Engoron, who presided over the civil fraud trial. Photo by Jeenah Moon-Pool via Getty Images.
People looking for accountability for the former President are kidding themselves and headed for the cliff. To my mind the worst thing he did -- the thing that I find painful and difficult even to think about -- was the separation by policy (and subsequent loss!) of small children from their parents at the border. There was no accountability for that, there is no case: the President abused a power we decided he had. Then I suppose there's the demonization of the decent Anthony Fauci and a set of policy and communications choices that led to the needless deaths of tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of Americans and which continue to bleed us. Again: that's not the ground where any of the current cases are being fought. There is a subservience to dictators that has resulted in policy changes that thousands of Ukrainians are paying in blood -- and they will not be the last. If the President is held "accountable" it will be for things that while horrible or immoral or dangerous are nonetheless podunk. Engoron made a distinction between venial and mortal sins and the worst mortal ones, he will escape judgment for, at least in the medium term, and the judgment of history does not warm my coffee.
Let's not worry about accountability for this nasty little man. Just hold up the law where and when you can. Guy broke the law, we can impose the legally allowed and mandated punishment -- whether that's appropriate or just, neither you or I know, but it's what New York law has for now said is a first approximation to appropriate -- and doing that reinforces a system. That is reasonably what we should be hoping for; the President will not be "held accountable."
Ensuring no one is above the law is at the core of our Democracy, Sanjay. Holding the powerful accountable for their actions wherever possible is part of that. The other things you mention are abhorrent but not illegal. So, yes, this, along with his criminal trials IS necessary for all of America to retain confidence that in this nation, no one acts with impunity against the public interest, our laws and our Democracy.
But ensuring nobody is above the law is an awfully limited concept of "accountability" and it is not a thing that carries a moral freight -- it is the mechanical functioning of a generally beneficial system. I mean, we routinely decry law that imposes unjustifiably harsh penalties on say, drug users, and I'd hate to think the democracy depends on slavish application of that. Nor is it, even, a particularly core function of our democracy -- prosecutors routinely decide what they can or cannot pursue, or let some people off in exchange for help bringing legal sanction onto others (and indeed a lot of that is occurring in cases related to Trump). The former President is not, by and large, going to be held accountable nor punished for most of what he has done and indeed in many ways he and his family are likely to come out ahead. So be it.
Don't get me wrong. Let's make the law work when we can as best as we can (I think I said that in the last para above). That would be a good thing and strengthen our institutions and protections. But you're making it more of a thing than it is. Trump stands out, if he does, not because he is somehow worse in his tax-cheating and financial skullduggery than so many other businessmen but because he has built a movement on the idea that he is beyond punishment.
Moreover there is a hunger to see the law stick it to Trump which serves nobody -- if you're hoping the law figures out how to get some measure of revenge, Trump's won, because that is the framework in which he sees the world and which he has freed from the collective id of quite possibly most Americans. If I have a choice between throwing Trump, Miller, and others in the deep dark hole they so richly deserve and sticking it to their Republican enablers writ large -- the Haleys and Barrs and so on so conveniently editing their own stories -- or letting Trump skate with some laurels and restoring the government to the clunky mostly functional state it should be in, and more importantly imbuing the national mood with more tolerance and sympathy, the latter is the no-brainer choice. Don't get me wrong, I think that's mostly a _false_ choice -- there's a handful of "pardon Trump for everything and move on" voices and I think those people are wrong, you need to show everyone the law sort of works -- but I think too many people would far rather see the first thing and it is not reassuring to watch people who should know better flip on NPR with the eager jones of grubby teenage boys passing around a dirty magazine (and kudos, by the way, to "All Things Considered" yesterday for opening with big stories on Navalny and then Gaza, both of which were more important than the Trump verdict).
But what you're saying elevates the mechanical process too far. Lots of people are above the law. Trump himself would have likely continued to be, had he not become President. Elon Musk routinely flouts SEC law and Defense policy regarding, say, clearances and drug use, and I'm not holding my breath for that to get fixed. If the democracy really depends on that, we're screwed -- but it does not.
He's not a nasty little man or even just a guy. He's a monster, a malignant narcissist, a dangerously ignorant megalomaniac, and a psychopath. More than enough mental health professionals have chimed in on his deep, deep disturbance.
400,001 COVID Deaths…the “1” was my last Aunt tonight! She had Long Covid for over a year, re-caught it again last Month, got over it and caught it again 5 days ago. It Took Her Life several hours ago! I WILL GO TO MY GRAVE HATING TRUMP!
Sanjay, you speak what I think. Trump has done so much harm to our country. I am thankful he has been found accountable to EJean Carroll, and now the financial fraud case. But the horrible crimes you listed, children separated from their parents at the border and Covid handling aren’t even addressed in the courts. Also the Jan 6 case and Documents cases were brought too late and I fear he won’t be held accountable in those before the election.
So Mr Beschloss overall I feel like his accountability is too little too late.
He HAS been held financially accountable for the crimes of financial fraud. But seeking to hear any remorse, regret, or receive any reparations beyond those court ordered from him is truly a fool’s errand.
Children and parents get separated every day across this country when a parent is charged with a criminal offense. It’s sad to see children cry when you take a parent out of a home, but because it’s sad, doesn’t mean that we ignore the law. When we send the message that if you are travelling with a child, you will be treated differently, this just encourages dishonest behavior which means taking advantage of children who are not actually related.
Plans for suicides? I recall Trump pushing suicide like he gaslights & projects but I saw no ‘winning’ for him on that. It sounded like wishful thinking on his part. Alaska’s mahgah idiot governor parrots this think-tank idea that population is in decline but it's a lie & rhetoric to justify defunding public-mandated education
AK IS losing population due to bad governor fraud losing state money.
A lot of people are wondering how trump is going to raise money--or credit--for an appeal bond. As a retired surety lawyer, I have a lot to say about how appeal bonds work. And it is likely for him to have to scramble to get one. But here I just wanted to point out something that is very relevant to that scramble (I've posted this elsewhere, apologies if you've already read it.)
- - - - -
Interesting article from a surety bond agent on requirements for stay of judgment execution. To have the automatic stay go into effect you have to have BOTH the filing of appeal and the bond in place. Thus, even though trump has filed a notice of appeal in the James case, James can start executing on his properties and even his gold toilets until the bond is posted.
I hope E Jean and James are moving on this, because any execution started would be AHEAD of any deeds of trust or similar filed as collateral for a new loan.
The FUN thing about a surety bond is that sureties usually require the personal indemnity of all officers of companies covered by the appeal AND their spouses. To be a fly on the wall when he hits Melania with this!!
I just read Judge Engeron's 92 page ruling. The stupidity of the Trump Organization is astounding. No normal business, of any size, operates this way. When the Trump witnesses testified (including Donald himself) the judge must have had to hold back guffaws! They thought they could get away with these idiotic asset values to make deals. And they did, for years! Good crooks have at least some sophistication. These guys acted like the 3 Stooges! Their FIRST impulse was to lie and cheat and defraud. When they could have been very successful by operating as a legit business.
Watch out for misinformation in the media about this ruling. It's very simple. Out and out fraud. Trump and his sons and his execs lied about the value of Trump's assets to make more money. Repeatedly, for years. The judgment money penalty is a return of part of their "ill gotten gains" that they fraudulently made from their lies. When the Press and pundits and the Trumps lie (some more) and spin this case, refer them to the judge's ruling. It speaks for itself. Here's a telling paragraph near the end:
"Refusal to Admit Error
The English poet Alexander Pope (1688-1744) first declared, “To err is human, to forgive is
divine.” Defendants apparently are of a different mind. After some four years of investigation
and litigation, the only error (“inadvertent,” of course) that they acknowledge is the tripling of
the size of the Trump Tower Penthouse, which cannot be gainsaid. Their complete lack of
contrition and remorse borders on pathological. They are accused only of inflating asset values
to make more money. The documents prove this over and over again. This is a venial sin, not a
mortal sin. Defendants did not commit murder or arson. They did not rob a bank at gunpoint.
Donald Trump is not Bernard Madoff. Yet, defendants are incapable of admitting the error of
Wondering what the grounds for the appeal will be. The state business fraud law is clear. The evidence and witnesses against Trump are conclusive. Trump Org put up no effective defense. They overpaid for their expert witnesses--who embarrassed themselves! One expert witness charged Trump $1 million and was a flop (talk about fraud!). The documents demonstrated that the company made a lot of money due to their lies to banks, taxing authorities, the City of New York and insurance companies. Many borrowers lie to their bank on a loan application. But few try to claim double and triple and 20x asset values. Mar-A-Lago is worth $26 million for tax assessment. But $1 Billion asset value for net worth calculation? Seven Springs valued as though it has 7 mansions built on it, when it's still just dirt? Not even a close call.
His lawyers have to do what Trump tells them to do so very likely they will push the losing argument that the judge was biased. Appellate Courts give great deference to the factfinderʻs view of the credibility of the witnesses so I donʻt think an appeal will go far if itʻs based on the courtʻs misreading of the witnessesʻ credibility. The statute is straight forward and the judge applied it correctly. So expect a lot of whining and hyperbole in the appeal.
Whatever works for fundraising, that will be the grounds. The motivation is to attempt to look ‘tough’ and hold the funds in limbo as long as possible & perhaps hope a dictator can wipe the debt clean.
The AP predicted almost 3 yrs ago that Seven Springs would come back to haunt him. DJT granted an easement to a conservation land trust to nature preserve (158 acres) & took a tax deduction for $21 because it could not be developed.
(In the original finding of fraud by this Judge, I remember references to valuing properties that cannot be developed as though they could be & rent controlled rental units as through they were not under rent control.) Mar A Lago also has deed restrictions.
— Cohen testified that Trump had financial statements saying Seven Springs was worth $291 million as of 2012. He gave copies of three of Trump’s financial statements to the House Committee on Oversight and Reform during his testimony.
… Trump, on his annual financial disclosure forms while president, said the property was worth between $25 million and $50 million.…. [In line with the appraisal without it being developed.]
Now they have the funds for the other states to send them ALL to New York City, where gracious democracy loving people will invite them into their own homes if that’s what it takes to keep them warm and safe!
But please also understand Epstein AND all unnamed co-conspirators (Clinton?Trump?Prince xyz?half of Congress?!) got a free ride to continue molesting minors (for a decade? at the behest of money + power, under the 2008 NPA (Non Prosecution Agreement).
Thanks, Steven, for this timely article! I do believe that this represents some justice, some accountability. And it shows that certain courts will act in a fair manner toward Trump. However, it remains to be seen what the Supreme Court and what Judge Cannon will do with regard to the two Federal trials. And there always remains the spectre of Trump's winning the election, in spite of all of his venality, and putting a stop to the Federal trials. In hindsight, I wish that Merrick Garland had acted more quickly. I recognize that he was seeking to follow the law and that prosecuting a political rival is a bad precedent to set. Nonetheless, it this were 2023, instead of 2024, I would be feeling more confident about the prospect of Trump getting the justice he deserves
The only type of accountability that will impact Trump would be if his supporting Republicans and constituents denounce him and shame him, literally. If his MAGA following would boo him off stage and start to throw tomatoes at him. If his base starts to chant "Lock Him Up!", then I would finally believe that he was being held accountable.
While I was glad to see that the judge imposed a harsh financial penalty, I'm afraid that isn't full "accountability." Trump will probably wriggle his way out of this by resorting to the same tactics he has always used to raise money: Most likely a combination of shady financial deals with overseas bad actors, conning more money out of his cult-like followers, and perpetual dodges and delays by his legal team. Full accountability will take place only when he is convicted of a crime and put in prison.
More than 170 years ago, Charles Dickens wrote one of his most probing novels, “Bleak House,” with a plot revolving around a seemingly endless lawsuit that had churned ever so slowly through the courts for decades.
Trump obviously keeps a copy by his bedside.
Dickens puts an end to it by having the estate’s once vast assets picked to oblivion by lawyers and legal fees.
There's no way he could have read as deep and complex a novel as Bleak House. I doubt he even watched the DVD with Gillian Anderson. His delay strategy is inspired by Roy Cohn.
He preferred My New Order - a book of Hitler speeches by his bedside …something Ivana told a reporter. DJT later it said was given to him by “Marty Davis from Paramount” and Davis confirmed.
I suspect even 1/2 billion dollars is not a problem for these people who what to topple democracy... he's their man. When I think about it from their perspective... everything is on the line, they are visible now, they have to win, their man has to be reelected. It is probably going to get really hot before 45 is actually held accountable.
They know Trump is a fool and will do anything for money. Their hope is that they can keep him afloat long enough to get him back in the White House where he will be in the role of their stooge who will take the fall for being the one behind completing all their Federalist Society/Ultra-Conservative/Fascist/Topple-Our-Democracy dreams, while leaving their hands [relatively] clean. It will be money wasted on the Fool. In the end, non-MAGA America will stand up and not allow it.
Good point. But they will likely only pony up if it looks like he will regain power. Although Putin has little to lose at this point. He is more likely to get the money by continuing to grift his cult. But it can't be too satisfying for trump to see all the millions flowing in just to pay E. Jean Carrol!
There has been some financial accountability with these rulings BUT there has been, to my way of thinking though, no moral accountability for the outrageous behavior, the absolute danger he has put this country and our allies in and his selling out of our political system. So, until he is treated as any other criminal defendant facing such serious charges as he is, I will always believe that our Justice system has somehow failed all of us.
That would have to include the entire GOP admitting it's become his private party and that they worship him as a cross between Jesus and Stalin. It will never happen.
While at breakfast this morning celebrating a friend’s BD, one of our group spoke of reporting that Elon Musk’s airplane had been seen at Palm Beach Airport after Judge Engoron's ruling, suggesting that he was there to visit Mar-a-logo to see Trump..I would not be surprised if Musk foots the bill to post the bonds for both Judgements while on appeal..
Now to your question..No, it does not feel like accountability..It is just separating someone from some money.. That, regardless how you slice it doesn’t come from trump’s pocket..If Musk does give Trump the money to pay for either the bonds or pay the judgments directly it will be a roll of the dice for Musk looking to set up a quid pro quo if Trump were to win reelection..
The only way this matter brushes up against accountability is if Trump is forced to sell off enough properties to either post bonds for appeal or pay the judgments.. Making the money come out of his pocket..
None of this is accountability, considering all of the damage he has caused..Accountability is ending his ability to draw life sustaining breath in perpetuity..No ventilator..To put it in the way the late great Richard Pryor would have said it, "That's some accountability for your ass.."
If he underwrites the appeal bond, would Musk be in the position to require a vast portion of the unencumbered value of Trump's assets as collateral (if there is indeed any of that value remaining?)
This is a very good question..he could simply buy properties from him outright or, more in keeping with the kind of person I observe him to be, he would likely look for the quid pro quo.. But, as you suggest it is just good business to have a collateral gaurantee in writing of something of real equity value..if it exists..
So who wants to pay in hopes of buying a future president?
A. There is a monitor over the businesses that must approve transactions, price etc.
B. DJT owes almost $400K in legal fees to the reporters/NYT (Jan 2024 decision) for a frivolous defamation case; about $90M or more to put up for appeal of the E Jean Carroll judgements; this recent decision includes. (He put the $5+M in escrow for the first one.)
C. A new company compliance dept. I suspect NY does not cover the cost of that or the monitoring.
D. None of the above take into account DJT’s attorney fees which he’s called his greatest expense.
E. It is difficult to say how many assets were already encumbered or have had new liens placed on them. (DJT is suspected of having unfiled liens against some assets which could complicate any ‘negotiations’ with Musk or others.
There always the Saudis but that might be complicated and then there is Putie who must be happy when a useful idiot needs $$.
There hasn’t been much attention paid to the family interests outside the US. During his time in the WH his foreign businesses were raking in not only $$ but free land and promises of infrastructure; permits for development. Then there were the odd, even abrupt foreign policy decisions. Odd until it was pointed out they appeared to favor leaders where he had business interests. For instance, In 2019, Trump stunned the US foreign policy establishment by pulling US troops out of northeast Syria. No benefit to the US and a betrayal of allied Kurds, which put our troops in a precarious position but it a victory for Turkey where he had 2 trump towerrs among other interests.
I lost My Last Aunt tonight to Covid. It was her third go round and impossible not to get in a Retirement Home…I WILL GO TO MY GRAVE PRAYING trump BURNS IN HELL UPON HIS DEATH!
I had not thought of that. I was thinking that it had to come from "his" money and could mot be paid by other people. I though that was what the "watcher" was for
It depends. If he manages to get his assets encumbered such that he gets to keep their value, then, no. Otherwise, it is accountability for the way he ran his businesses. We'd still be waiting on his incitement of the Capitol Insurrection and other crimes. This is emphatically *NOT* criminal accountability.
Caught with his hand in the cookie jar but it’s nothing until the cash is deposited in Ms Carroll and the state of New York’s accounts. That’s going to be a while. The lack of contrition tells me no one is going to get paid: again!
See my comment above about appeal bonds and the automatic stay when appealing. Carroll and James can start executing on their judgments RIGHT NOW, until a bond is posted. And once a bond is posted--cash or surety--there is a fund to pay the judgments in full once the appeal is denied.
The financial penalty is epic. But trump will turn to his Russian and Saudi friends for the money, and of course continue to grift his cult. But it will be excruciating for him to raise all those millions only to pay E. Jean Carrol and the State of New York! There's probably no better form of punishment for a criminal malignant narcissist.
Steven, I think this decision does give hope that the courts will continue to hold him accountable, despite his former job. However, I certainly don't think that means any political toll will accrue. Anyone not susceptible to the racist arguments he espouses, would already know his act, and hold him accountable at the ballot box. At least I hope.
He is an Ace Predator whose sole purpose on earth is to crush, humiliate, hurt, torture, acquire and devour everything in his path. He is a master at what he does and imo these rulings are of the kind and amount that he will look at as challenges and he'll get around them.
Thank you for your information Steven.—-I’m grateful for any accountable meted by Justice for any of Trumps illegal actions.—-Its difficult to assess the true impact on someone who seems to thrive from cheating any system and seems to accomplish these repeated actions mercilessly without regard to the Law, Morals or Norms—-To be honest, I am surprised he has been held accountable at all.—-His threatening verbiage motivates subsequent actions to try to deter witnesses and members of the Jurisprudence system from feeling safe to do their jobs.—-He is actively menacing with his constant threats and lies.—-Part of me yearns for his banishment from the entire US, but even that probably would not silence him or end his efforts to punish.—-
I do not think wearing an ankle bracelet for punishment in the future will be enough.—-As for now?—The fines seem adequate but of course do not compensate the many people or businesses his actions have harmed during his existence.
I’m truly hoping he is held to the highest standards of accountably for his actions to in effect distort and end Democracy subvert our elections. In addition I wouldn’t mind him being held for life in solitary in prison for sharing highly confidential secrets with anyone especially foreign governments!/—
///
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title ….
///
18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
///
I find I’m incredibly angry over the sharing of our Secrets and attempts to corrupt our elections.—— Merrick Garland causes many questions.
Yes, Garland has turned out to have been a terrible choice for AG. NOTHING, in two years, done about the orange sadist! That should have been enough to kick him out. Bringing in Eric Holder may have been the way to go.
If it isn't accountability, what is it? If is isn't accountability it must be just a political trick as Trump says it is. Don't get me wrong, I believe it is accountability, although what the Trump family is charged with is probably more prevalent among the 1% of our population who hold 90% of our wealth close to themselves, and the main reason they are holding on to it is greed and power, to the detriment of us all. How else can these one percenters continue to hold on to their gross wealth without using (abusing?) government systems, especially the courts? The Trump family has done this for decades by being able to pay exorbitant fees to law firms that unethically and immorally specialize in fleecing people and delaying justice, and paying off Congressmen through PACs that were illegal before Citizens United came along. The legal profession has turned on the rule of law for their own benefit, because they can, successfully maintaining this gross wealth inequality. It's time to make all of these one percenters accountable. If we were to take just half of the wealth of the top half percent of these people/corporations, they would still be wealthy and our country, and the world, would be able to address every problem and end poverty and the injustices of racism and the failure to guarantee the rights of everyone. It is time that this minority of deplorables who are in control of Congress and our legal systems be stopped and our democracy restored.
There is a vast difference between civil and criminal accountability. We see here the beginnings of the former so-called President’s civil accountability. Because that man defines himself by his money, losing any of it in such a manner will be enormously damaging to his psyche. For me, there is no accountability until he is convicted of criminal and treasonous acts against our citizens and our nation. This includes seeing him carted off to prison, where he rightfully belongs for who knows how many other under-investigated crimes.
As far as I am concerned, the only just punishment for Trump is life in prison. The problem with that is that he will still be able to stir up the hoards of people who are stupid enough to believe that he is honest and actually cares about them. :( I am surrounded by Trump supporters, (family, friends, neighbors,) and there is no way to persuade them to even consider the fact that he is anything but a hero. I am becoming more and more of a hermit. :(
Regarding "accountability": Is our judicial system neutral enough and objective enough to assure that Trump & Co. pay their just dues? Or, is the court, in this instance the Supreme Court, so mired in its own corruption to rule toward political favors rather than render a decision that is justice uncorrupted?
Trump, forever the obnoxious tantrum-throwing five-year-old may finally be meeting his very own comeuppance. The man is forever one of the most disgusting persons in the universe. "Contrition"? HA! A person so void of dignity and decency can never be contrite. I reflect on how many "news" hours have been spent on this man over the last decade. He is a life-waster, wasting the lives of millions with his toxic games. And, speaking of games perhaps he has finally met his own head-to-head. One must wonder what an entire day without Trump might even feel like. A gift from heaven, perhaps?
Yes, it feels like the beginning of accountability. It feels like the first thrusters of a rocket firing just before liftoff, and after numerous holds. It feels like the slow grinding wheels of justice finally getting traction and beginning to grind on him. It feels like the first bubbles finally starting to form in a pot of water about to boil.
The justice system has been remarkably reliable, though by design it gives the accused every opportunity, even though criminals with means can jam up the works. And there is a real danger that his strategy of delaying the proceedings until after the election could enable him to avoid true accountability altogether, if he should win or orchestrate another coup that actually succeeds.
There is also the distinct possibility that having an obvious fraudster and traitor at the top of the ticket in this election will spell then end of the GOP stranglehold on public policy, and enable America to overcome an existential threat to democracy.
I’m very grateful for this judgement, Steven. It has reassured me of a Justice system that has some competent professionals at work who understand the severity of their responsibilities, and the repercussions that may ensue based on their decisions. Especially the “no one is above the law” sentiment. This matters to me. However(!)… until “citizen” Phlegm(former President) is “out of sight, out of mind”, (full)accountability will have to wait.
There is much more to come and many can find fault with even this harsh judgement but in reality this is great in all of its weakness' since the real judgement must and will be on November 5th of this year! We/ all of the normal freedom loving people of this country will send this man to hell with our vote. It will be the ultimate disgrace for his feeble mind and the most righteous event of my life.
I wish people would stop calling the March 25 trial the "hush money" trial. He's on trial for election interference, which is far more important, and relevant. Stop normalizing his behavior, it isn't helping people understand what's at stake.
And a propos, part of the fraud is on the taxpayers of New York, Florida and New Jersey which I not heard mentioned in discussing this verdict.
The banks may have said "no big deal" when he overvalued his real estate, but part of the fraud was, and more blatantly in my mind, undervalued the same property for property tax purposes and thereby underpaying property taxes forever.
Anybody living in NYC or NJ knew what trump was before 2016. A cheat, a fraud, a braggart,a womanizer, a nonpaying employer of illegals, a man of no decency who would cheat his own brother. But he had money, ill gotten, but hey. And so he was accepted into that snooty kind of pretend we like opera society and by politicians who wanted into his wallet. He is trump and always will be. Forget contrition, apology,believer in law, compassion . trump lives for trump, will till the day he dies. So, don't expect him to go away. He will accuse his opponents of rigging, witch hunt, being vermin, call for retribution and revenge and whine Poor Me until the cows come home and the buffalo roam.
I haven't much respect for many of his lawyers, making up things like immunity from committed crimes, can't be tried if a president, saying the holder of an office is not an officer. No wonder lawyers have a bad name, are the butt of jokes. Between them and the slowness (fear?) of the DOJ, we now find democracy down to the wire. Appeals will be dragged out and ponderous while November will soon be upon us.
Mary says devastated. I say furious, enraged, livid, and thus, dangerous. He may be held accountable by brave, threatened prosecutors and judges, but he needs to be held accountable to the citizens of the United States.
And poor New York. Nothing before trump and would be nothing without him. Its misfortune will be prosperity for Bekins and Allied ! May they all head west, not south. The traffic here is already atrocious!!
I think you've got most of it right, but I can't buy " Nothing before trump and would be nothing without him." Unless you mean that's what he thinks. NYC was a great city and could be again. But I grew up there and Trump was *always* known to be a con man fraud.
I think it’s both. It’s too little too late. But i also think it’s taking a real toll on him as Mary Trump says. I’m furious at the way he has been treated way more leniently than anyone else would have been, but some accountability is better than no accountability. And in spite of his shows of bravado, I believe Mary Trump when she says the shattering of his image as a hugely successful businessman is his worst punishment—worse, I’m sure, than prison.
Justice? No. Accountability? Maybe. Will these judgements against him actually cost HIM money? Remains to be seen. Is the missing binder of secret classified information now on the auction block to the highest bidder? Will Putin or the House of Saud come to his rescue? And what will they get in return? This is a precarious moment in our history. It’s now even more imperative that this person is soundly defeated at the ballot box. And then let the criminal courts take their turns.
As with Al Capone and his taxes, we need to take accountability in whatever form we can get it. I think fraud is a screen for more nefarious dealings--the long speculated but never proved loan guarantees from Russian oligarchs. Is Deutsche Bank really fine to take sub-standard returns for the risk presented or were they taking much less risk than what appears? I believe based only on circumstantial evidence that the banks would rather be seen as having been deceived by Trump than exposed as having accepted financial guarantees from dodgy interests abroad.
TFG has done so many bad things that it's futile to expect full accountability. But I do think that this huge financial judgement represents a bit of karma. The only thing that speaks to his cold heart is money. If there's a judgment day, he'll be held accountable for his crimes against humanity.
Accountability? Yes and no. After all the years of lying, cheating, and defrauding individuals and businesses alike, it is good to see some financial penalty. Hopefully most of it will stick. However, it is the 4 criminal cases I am watching with much more interest. Unless at least one of those bring him to task, our country will never be the same and never will be able to heal.
A start, but a good one...DA Bragg will notch up a criminal conviction as a warm-up for the Jan6 trial, but the MAL docs and the GA election interference cases are mired in all matter of procedural issues, so "accountability" takes a holiday down South. All in all, the walls are closing in on Orange Jesus - Hallelujah!!
Trump created so much destruction for so many years, that he will never be held accountable for all of it. And yet, Judge Engoron's ruling is a fair and correct step to be taken. Trump must disgorge millions of fraudulently gained income AND pay interest on the money for the time that he's had it. By the time all is said and done, it will be well over $450 billion. In Trump-world, that's YUGE. And he's out of business in NY for at least 2 years. A lot will happen to his NY businesses in that time.
The judgment is well deserved, and he will not be able to appeal the verdict until he puts up the money, one way or another.
And he's facing further legal proceedings. The wheels of justice are grinding, and he can squawk all he wants.
The cornerstone of his appeal is proven false. Trump is not a businessman. He is not a successful businessman. He is a fraud. He was a fraud as President, too. Plain as the nose on your face.
Trump and accountability - the two words do not seem to fit together. He is still appealing and getting others to help pay - donations and those freaky gold shoes. He worms his way out of everything by finding loopholes. And his supporters are still full on board with his grifting and criminal activities. If anyone of us had done the things he has done we would be in prison. At this point, regarding Trump and accountability, I think I am at "I will believe it when I see it" - and I have not seen it yet
The impending legal challenges facing Donald Trump open a Pandora's box of inquiries about the very fabric of accountability and the legal system's capability to impartially hold individuals of immense power to account. Are we on the cusp of witnessing a paradigm shift towards genuine justice, or are we merely observing a fragmentary skirmish in an extensive battlefield of legal confrontations?
The progression of these cases, in light of Trump's tenure as President, ostensibly indicates an assertion of accountability that supersedes political stature. Yet, it's crucial to approach this with an understanding of the legal labyrinth: its complexity, its protracted nature, and the inherent unpredictability of judicial outcomes.
The repercussions of these legal proceedings on Trump could be profound, affecting him both personally and in the political arena. The erosion of public trust in his character and ethical standing might be exacerbated, potentially derailing his aspirations for future political ventures.
Conversely, there exists a sentiment that these legal actions might be perceived as too insubstantial or belated, particularly if the wheels of justice grind too slowly. With the specter of the 2024 presidential race looming and Trump maintaining his political visibility, the adage 'justice delayed is justice denied' resonates with pertinence.
The ramifications of these cases, along with their influence on Trump's political trajectory, will hinge on myriad factors: the cogency of the evidence, the fairness of the judicial process, and the societal reception of these events. This situation, in all its complexity, invites ongoing dialogue and critical examination as it develops.
I am unsure that anyone of such voluntary evilness can ever be held accountable. History will weigh in on that. I personally feel better that there is some reckoning , however slowly and imperfectly it is occurring. I take heart that djt is publicly humiliated and assigned a "Loser" stigma for all to see. These are painful for him. He deserves the ignominy he is receiving.
It is a start. The Republican party should be held to account by outlawing it if it nominates DJT after a conviction is obtained. Why should it be permitted to qualify a criminal for the presidency? All lawyers who defended his lies in courts should also be disbarred. My point is that accountability should be spread to all reaches of this fascist cancer.
I wish commentators would point out the many other civil fraud cases. It is not selective prosecution. It is selective reporting of that mischaracterization. And civil fraud is such an oxymoron.
Accountability can never be achieved for all the evil deeds and criminality Trump and his sycophants have exacted on this country, indeed the world.
Trump must become an example. This can only be achieved through sheer and unabashed punishment. The objective should not be vengence, but to post a warning.
Why is the next case called the “hush money” case? It is election interference - hiding relevant fact from voters before the election. It is a serious case and should not have a silly name.
Total damages and fines of over 1/2 BILLION is a good start. 4 more trials to come. It’s only accountability until all the cases are complete.
I’ve always wondered why Trump would want to delay all his trials since he claims he did everything perfectly in every case. Surely a jury of his peers would acquit an innocent man. It seems like he would have a better chance to be PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES if he was found innocent. Hmmmm…..
People looking for accountability for the former President are kidding themselves and headed for the cliff. To my mind the worst thing he did -- the thing that I find painful and difficult even to think about -- was the separation by policy (and subsequent loss!) of small children from their parents at the border. There was no accountability for that, there is no case: the President abused a power we decided he had. Then I suppose there's the demonization of the decent Anthony Fauci and a set of policy and communications choices that led to the needless deaths of tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of Americans and which continue to bleed us. Again: that's not the ground where any of the current cases are being fought. There is a subservience to dictators that has resulted in policy changes that thousands of Ukrainians are paying in blood -- and they will not be the last. If the President is held "accountable" it will be for things that while horrible or immoral or dangerous are nonetheless podunk. Engoron made a distinction between venial and mortal sins and the worst mortal ones, he will escape judgment for, at least in the medium term, and the judgment of history does not warm my coffee.
Let's not worry about accountability for this nasty little man. Just hold up the law where and when you can. Guy broke the law, we can impose the legally allowed and mandated punishment -- whether that's appropriate or just, neither you or I know, but it's what New York law has for now said is a first approximation to appropriate -- and doing that reinforces a system. That is reasonably what we should be hoping for; the President will not be "held accountable."
THE FORMER PRESIDENT!
The current POS!
Ensuring no one is above the law is at the core of our Democracy, Sanjay. Holding the powerful accountable for their actions wherever possible is part of that. The other things you mention are abhorrent but not illegal. So, yes, this, along with his criminal trials IS necessary for all of America to retain confidence that in this nation, no one acts with impunity against the public interest, our laws and our Democracy.
But ensuring nobody is above the law is an awfully limited concept of "accountability" and it is not a thing that carries a moral freight -- it is the mechanical functioning of a generally beneficial system. I mean, we routinely decry law that imposes unjustifiably harsh penalties on say, drug users, and I'd hate to think the democracy depends on slavish application of that. Nor is it, even, a particularly core function of our democracy -- prosecutors routinely decide what they can or cannot pursue, or let some people off in exchange for help bringing legal sanction onto others (and indeed a lot of that is occurring in cases related to Trump). The former President is not, by and large, going to be held accountable nor punished for most of what he has done and indeed in many ways he and his family are likely to come out ahead. So be it.
Don't get me wrong. Let's make the law work when we can as best as we can (I think I said that in the last para above). That would be a good thing and strengthen our institutions and protections. But you're making it more of a thing than it is. Trump stands out, if he does, not because he is somehow worse in his tax-cheating and financial skullduggery than so many other businessmen but because he has built a movement on the idea that he is beyond punishment.
Moreover there is a hunger to see the law stick it to Trump which serves nobody -- if you're hoping the law figures out how to get some measure of revenge, Trump's won, because that is the framework in which he sees the world and which he has freed from the collective id of quite possibly most Americans. If I have a choice between throwing Trump, Miller, and others in the deep dark hole they so richly deserve and sticking it to their Republican enablers writ large -- the Haleys and Barrs and so on so conveniently editing their own stories -- or letting Trump skate with some laurels and restoring the government to the clunky mostly functional state it should be in, and more importantly imbuing the national mood with more tolerance and sympathy, the latter is the no-brainer choice. Don't get me wrong, I think that's mostly a _false_ choice -- there's a handful of "pardon Trump for everything and move on" voices and I think those people are wrong, you need to show everyone the law sort of works -- but I think too many people would far rather see the first thing and it is not reassuring to watch people who should know better flip on NPR with the eager jones of grubby teenage boys passing around a dirty magazine (and kudos, by the way, to "All Things Considered" yesterday for opening with big stories on Navalny and then Gaza, both of which were more important than the Trump verdict).
But what you're saying elevates the mechanical process too far. Lots of people are above the law. Trump himself would have likely continued to be, had he not become President. Elon Musk routinely flouts SEC law and Defense policy regarding, say, clearances and drug use, and I'm not holding my breath for that to get fixed. If the democracy really depends on that, we're screwed -- but it does not.
Excellent perceptions and good advice, Sanjay.
He's not a nasty little man or even just a guy. He's a monster, a malignant narcissist, a dangerously ignorant megalomaniac, and a psychopath. More than enough mental health professionals have chimed in on his deep, deep disturbance.
400,001 COVID Deaths…the “1” was my last Aunt tonight! She had Long Covid for over a year, re-caught it again last Month, got over it and caught it again 5 days ago. It Took Her Life several hours ago! I WILL GO TO MY GRAVE HATING TRUMP!
Charlotte, I am so sorry. I agree with you. Trumps mishandling of Covid has really cost countless lives.
I can totally understand your feelings. His handling of Covid is a national tragedy. My condolences for your loss.
I am very sorry for your loss. I can understand your pain,grief and outrage over your Aunt's tragic and unnecessary illness and her death.
Sanjay, you speak what I think. Trump has done so much harm to our country. I am thankful he has been found accountable to EJean Carroll, and now the financial fraud case. But the horrible crimes you listed, children separated from their parents at the border and Covid handling aren’t even addressed in the courts. Also the Jan 6 case and Documents cases were brought too late and I fear he won’t be held accountable in those before the election.
So Mr Beschloss overall I feel like his accountability is too little too late.
So well said!
He HAS been held financially accountable for the crimes of financial fraud. But seeking to hear any remorse, regret, or receive any reparations beyond those court ordered from him is truly a fool’s errand.
Crime has been punished.
Let’s move on to his next trials!
Children and parents get separated every day across this country when a parent is charged with a criminal offense. It’s sad to see children cry when you take a parent out of a home, but because it’s sad, doesn’t mean that we ignore the law. When we send the message that if you are travelling with a child, you will be treated differently, this just encourages dishonest behavior which means taking advantage of children who are not actually related.
To be expected, the first loathsome -- and factually indefensible -- defense of a loathsome policy.
What did I say that is not factual?
Agreed. Excellent analysis
2IFPOTUS works for me.
Plans for suicides? I recall Trump pushing suicide like he gaslights & projects but I saw no ‘winning’ for him on that. It sounded like wishful thinking on his part. Alaska’s mahgah idiot governor parrots this think-tank idea that population is in decline but it's a lie & rhetoric to justify defunding public-mandated education
AK IS losing population due to bad governor fraud losing state money.
A lot of people are wondering how trump is going to raise money--or credit--for an appeal bond. As a retired surety lawyer, I have a lot to say about how appeal bonds work. And it is likely for him to have to scramble to get one. But here I just wanted to point out something that is very relevant to that scramble (I've posted this elsewhere, apologies if you've already read it.)
- - - - -
Interesting article from a surety bond agent on requirements for stay of judgment execution. To have the automatic stay go into effect you have to have BOTH the filing of appeal and the bond in place. Thus, even though trump has filed a notice of appeal in the James case, James can start executing on his properties and even his gold toilets until the bond is posted.
I hope E Jean and James are moving on this, because any execution started would be AHEAD of any deeds of trust or similar filed as collateral for a new loan.
https://courtbondnow.com/appeal-bonds/when-are-appeal-bonds-filed-and-stays-go-into-effect/
Touché
Thanks.
I’m guessing the monitor and company compliance office are additional expenses not figured into the blow to his available assets.
Hee Hee. Hadn't thought of that.
The FUN thing about a surety bond is that sureties usually require the personal indemnity of all officers of companies covered by the appeal AND their spouses. To be a fly on the wall when he hits Melania with this!!
I just read Judge Engeron's 92 page ruling. The stupidity of the Trump Organization is astounding. No normal business, of any size, operates this way. When the Trump witnesses testified (including Donald himself) the judge must have had to hold back guffaws! They thought they could get away with these idiotic asset values to make deals. And they did, for years! Good crooks have at least some sophistication. These guys acted like the 3 Stooges! Their FIRST impulse was to lie and cheat and defraud. When they could have been very successful by operating as a legit business.
Watch out for misinformation in the media about this ruling. It's very simple. Out and out fraud. Trump and his sons and his execs lied about the value of Trump's assets to make more money. Repeatedly, for years. The judgment money penalty is a return of part of their "ill gotten gains" that they fraudulently made from their lies. When the Press and pundits and the Trumps lie (some more) and spin this case, refer them to the judge's ruling. It speaks for itself. Here's a telling paragraph near the end:
"Refusal to Admit Error
The English poet Alexander Pope (1688-1744) first declared, “To err is human, to forgive is
divine.” Defendants apparently are of a different mind. After some four years of investigation
and litigation, the only error (“inadvertent,” of course) that they acknowledge is the tripling of
the size of the Trump Tower Penthouse, which cannot be gainsaid. Their complete lack of
contrition and remorse borders on pathological. They are accused only of inflating asset values
to make more money. The documents prove this over and over again. This is a venial sin, not a
mortal sin. Defendants did not commit murder or arson. They did not rob a bank at gunpoint.
Donald Trump is not Bernard Madoff. Yet, defendants are incapable of admitting the error of
their ways."
Wondering what the grounds for the appeal will be. The state business fraud law is clear. The evidence and witnesses against Trump are conclusive. Trump Org put up no effective defense. They overpaid for their expert witnesses--who embarrassed themselves! One expert witness charged Trump $1 million and was a flop (talk about fraud!). The documents demonstrated that the company made a lot of money due to their lies to banks, taxing authorities, the City of New York and insurance companies. Many borrowers lie to their bank on a loan application. But few try to claim double and triple and 20x asset values. Mar-A-Lago is worth $26 million for tax assessment. But $1 Billion asset value for net worth calculation? Seven Springs valued as though it has 7 mansions built on it, when it's still just dirt? Not even a close call.
His lawyers have to do what Trump tells them to do so very likely they will push the losing argument that the judge was biased. Appellate Courts give great deference to the factfinderʻs view of the credibility of the witnesses so I donʻt think an appeal will go far if itʻs based on the courtʻs misreading of the witnessesʻ credibility. The statute is straight forward and the judge applied it correctly. So expect a lot of whining and hyperbole in the appeal.
Whatever works for fundraising, that will be the grounds. The motivation is to attempt to look ‘tough’ and hold the funds in limbo as long as possible & perhaps hope a dictator can wipe the debt clean.
The AP predicted almost 3 yrs ago that Seven Springs would come back to haunt him. DJT granted an easement to a conservation land trust to nature preserve (158 acres) & took a tax deduction for $21 because it could not be developed.
(In the original finding of fraud by this Judge, I remember references to valuing properties that cannot be developed as though they could be & rent controlled rental units as through they were not under rent control.) Mar A Lago also has deed restrictions.
— Cohen testified that Trump had financial statements saying Seven Springs was worth $291 million as of 2012. He gave copies of three of Trump’s financial statements to the House Committee on Oversight and Reform during his testimony.
… Trump, on his annual financial disclosure forms while president, said the property was worth between $25 million and $50 million.…. [In line with the appraisal without it being developed.]
https://apnews.com/article/trump-westchester-estate-property-value-investigation-d6a128161e52d1cea94d4ffb54d14ef0
Now New York can help all the immigrants being bused to it from The South!
Now they have the funds for the other states to send them ALL to New York City, where gracious democracy loving people will invite them into their own homes if that’s what it takes to keep them warm and safe!
"They did not commit treason." was NOT in Engoron's SHORT list of crimes NOT committed.
Clearly, in this case, the essence of judicial wit was brevity.
Thanks for this!
It’s not accountability until the threat of pardoning himself is removed
These two are state cases. They can’t be pardoned.
I understand. Hope you are right.
But please also understand Epstein AND all unnamed co-conspirators (Clinton?Trump?Prince xyz?half of Congress?!) got a free ride to continue molesting minors (for a decade? at the behest of money + power, under the 2008 NPA (Non Prosecution Agreement).
https://apnews.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-florida-e2a4431f7319afd037023d9a586aa291#:~:text=Under%20the%202008%20non%2Dprosecution,in%20a%20work%2Drelease%20program.
So, watch close, what money + power - scruples do do.
Thanks, Steven, for this timely article! I do believe that this represents some justice, some accountability. And it shows that certain courts will act in a fair manner toward Trump. However, it remains to be seen what the Supreme Court and what Judge Cannon will do with regard to the two Federal trials. And there always remains the spectre of Trump's winning the election, in spite of all of his venality, and putting a stop to the Federal trials. In hindsight, I wish that Merrick Garland had acted more quickly. I recognize that he was seeking to follow the law and that prosecuting a political rival is a bad precedent to set. Nonetheless, it this were 2023, instead of 2024, I would be feeling more confident about the prospect of Trump getting the justice he deserves
What I expect are new revelations of financial wrongdoing as the court-appointed overseers delve into the Great Company’s books.
Accountability depends on the federal judiciary and its third party sponsors. 🤞
The only type of accountability that will impact Trump would be if his supporting Republicans and constituents denounce him and shame him, literally. If his MAGA following would boo him off stage and start to throw tomatoes at him. If his base starts to chant "Lock Him Up!", then I would finally believe that he was being held accountable.
While I was glad to see that the judge imposed a harsh financial penalty, I'm afraid that isn't full "accountability." Trump will probably wriggle his way out of this by resorting to the same tactics he has always used to raise money: Most likely a combination of shady financial deals with overseas bad actors, conning more money out of his cult-like followers, and perpetual dodges and delays by his legal team. Full accountability will take place only when he is convicted of a crime and put in prison.
More than 170 years ago, Charles Dickens wrote one of his most probing novels, “Bleak House,” with a plot revolving around a seemingly endless lawsuit that had churned ever so slowly through the courts for decades.
Trump obviously keeps a copy by his bedside.
Dickens puts an end to it by having the estate’s once vast assets picked to oblivion by lawyers and legal fees.
May Trump have a similar fate.
There's no way he could have read as deep and complex a novel as Bleak House. I doubt he even watched the DVD with Gillian Anderson. His delay strategy is inspired by Roy Cohn.
He preferred My New Order - a book of Hitler speeches by his bedside …something Ivana told a reporter. DJT later it said was given to him by “Marty Davis from Paramount” and Davis confirmed.
I can imagine a call with Jared who has a "friend" , maybe in Saudi, who will pay this off...
I suspect even 1/2 billion dollars is not a problem for these people who what to topple democracy... he's their man. When I think about it from their perspective... everything is on the line, they are visible now, they have to win, their man has to be reelected. It is probably going to get really hot before 45 is actually held accountable.
They know Trump is a fool and will do anything for money. Their hope is that they can keep him afloat long enough to get him back in the White House where he will be in the role of their stooge who will take the fall for being the one behind completing all their Federalist Society/Ultra-Conservative/Fascist/Topple-Our-Democracy dreams, while leaving their hands [relatively] clean. It will be money wasted on the Fool. In the end, non-MAGA America will stand up and not allow it.
I love your optimism!
Anything? I wonder if he’d be willing to remove his hairpiece for a donation?
And for this reason he is a huge national security risk
The whole damn family is!
Good point. But they will likely only pony up if it looks like he will regain power. Although Putin has little to lose at this point. He is more likely to get the money by continuing to grift his cult. But it can't be too satisfying for trump to see all the millions flowing in just to pay E. Jean Carrol!
You are absolutely right. That never crossed my mind.
Plus his “PAC’s” of Think Tank Dark Money.
There has been some financial accountability with these rulings BUT there has been, to my way of thinking though, no moral accountability for the outrageous behavior, the absolute danger he has put this country and our allies in and his selling out of our political system. So, until he is treated as any other criminal defendant facing such serious charges as he is, I will always believe that our Justice system has somehow failed all of us.
That would have to include the entire GOP admitting it's become his private party and that they worship him as a cross between Jesus and Stalin. It will never happen.
"no moral accountability"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Good luck with that one.
While at breakfast this morning celebrating a friend’s BD, one of our group spoke of reporting that Elon Musk’s airplane had been seen at Palm Beach Airport after Judge Engoron's ruling, suggesting that he was there to visit Mar-a-logo to see Trump..I would not be surprised if Musk foots the bill to post the bonds for both Judgements while on appeal..
Now to your question..No, it does not feel like accountability..It is just separating someone from some money.. That, regardless how you slice it doesn’t come from trump’s pocket..If Musk does give Trump the money to pay for either the bonds or pay the judgments directly it will be a roll of the dice for Musk looking to set up a quid pro quo if Trump were to win reelection..
The only way this matter brushes up against accountability is if Trump is forced to sell off enough properties to either post bonds for appeal or pay the judgments.. Making the money come out of his pocket..
None of this is accountability, considering all of the damage he has caused..Accountability is ending his ability to draw life sustaining breath in perpetuity..No ventilator..To put it in the way the late great Richard Pryor would have said it, "That's some accountability for your ass.."
If he underwrites the appeal bond, would Musk be in the position to require a vast portion of the unencumbered value of Trump's assets as collateral (if there is indeed any of that value remaining?)
This is a very good question..he could simply buy properties from him outright or, more in keeping with the kind of person I observe him to be, he would likely look for the quid pro quo.. But, as you suggest it is just good business to have a collateral gaurantee in writing of something of real equity value..if it exists..
So who wants to pay in hopes of buying a future president?
A. There is a monitor over the businesses that must approve transactions, price etc.
B. DJT owes almost $400K in legal fees to the reporters/NYT (Jan 2024 decision) for a frivolous defamation case; about $90M or more to put up for appeal of the E Jean Carroll judgements; this recent decision includes. (He put the $5+M in escrow for the first one.)
C. A new company compliance dept. I suspect NY does not cover the cost of that or the monitoring.
D. None of the above take into account DJT’s attorney fees which he’s called his greatest expense.
E. It is difficult to say how many assets were already encumbered or have had new liens placed on them. (DJT is suspected of having unfiled liens against some assets which could complicate any ‘negotiations’ with Musk or others.
The more risk the more it costs.
Musk..
There always the Saudis but that might be complicated and then there is Putie who must be happy when a useful idiot needs $$.
There hasn’t been much attention paid to the family interests outside the US. During his time in the WH his foreign businesses were raking in not only $$ but free land and promises of infrastructure; permits for development. Then there were the odd, even abrupt foreign policy decisions. Odd until it was pointed out they appeared to favor leaders where he had business interests. For instance, In 2019, Trump stunned the US foreign policy establishment by pulling US troops out of northeast Syria. No benefit to the US and a betrayal of allied Kurds, which put our troops in a precarious position but it a victory for Turkey where he had 2 trump towerrs among other interests.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/donald-trump-s-longtime-business-connections-turkey-back-spotlight-n1064011
I lost My Last Aunt tonight to Covid. It was her third go round and impossible not to get in a Retirement Home…I WILL GO TO MY GRAVE PRAYING trump BURNS IN HELL UPON HIS DEATH!
I had not thought of that. I was thinking that it had to come from "his" money and could mot be paid by other people. I though that was what the "watcher" was for
"Does the Fraud Ruling Feel Like Accountability?"
It depends. If he manages to get his assets encumbered such that he gets to keep their value, then, no. Otherwise, it is accountability for the way he ran his businesses. We'd still be waiting on his incitement of the Capitol Insurrection and other crimes. This is emphatically *NOT* criminal accountability.
With all the witness tampering I can not understand why it is not in jail. A human would be.
Caught with his hand in the cookie jar but it’s nothing until the cash is deposited in Ms Carroll and the state of New York’s accounts. That’s going to be a while. The lack of contrition tells me no one is going to get paid: again!
See my comment above about appeal bonds and the automatic stay when appealing. Carroll and James can start executing on their judgments RIGHT NOW, until a bond is posted. And once a bond is posted--cash or surety--there is a fund to pay the judgments in full once the appeal is denied.
It feels like the beginning of accountability to me. Full accountability won’t come until his bloated a** is in prison.
The financial penalty is epic. But trump will turn to his Russian and Saudi friends for the money, and of course continue to grift his cult. But it will be excruciating for him to raise all those millions only to pay E. Jean Carrol and the State of New York! There's probably no better form of punishment for a criminal malignant narcissist.
I'm so tired of Trump's schtick. Nothing is ever his fault. He must have been an insufferable child.
Elon’s jet was near Mar-a-Lago yesterday and TFG’s share of Truth Social may be worth a few billions. Would Musk bail him out for access?
TFG’s share of truth social might be worth some before taxes cash or enough for a lien.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/digital-world-shares-surge-us-regulators-clear-way-merger-with-trumps-media-firm-2024-02-15/
It is interesting that Musk was “near” Mar a Lago. But he has a lot going on in FL so I’m not going to read a lot into it. https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/02/spacex-wants-to-take-over-a-florida-launch-pad-from-rival-ula/
Steven, I think this decision does give hope that the courts will continue to hold him accountable, despite his former job. However, I certainly don't think that means any political toll will accrue. Anyone not susceptible to the racist arguments he espouses, would already know his act, and hold him accountable at the ballot box. At least I hope.
He is an Ace Predator whose sole purpose on earth is to crush, humiliate, hurt, torture, acquire and devour everything in his path. He is a master at what he does and imo these rulings are of the kind and amount that he will look at as challenges and he'll get around them.
It feels like a bit of a start. Long way to go for criminal accountability! Love the jab at Ivanka from Judge Engoron
Thank you for your information Steven.—-I’m grateful for any accountable meted by Justice for any of Trumps illegal actions.—-Its difficult to assess the true impact on someone who seems to thrive from cheating any system and seems to accomplish these repeated actions mercilessly without regard to the Law, Morals or Norms—-To be honest, I am surprised he has been held accountable at all.—-His threatening verbiage motivates subsequent actions to try to deter witnesses and members of the Jurisprudence system from feeling safe to do their jobs.—-He is actively menacing with his constant threats and lies.—-Part of me yearns for his banishment from the entire US, but even that probably would not silence him or end his efforts to punish.—-
I do not think wearing an ankle bracelet for punishment in the future will be enough.—-As for now?—The fines seem adequate but of course do not compensate the many people or businesses his actions have harmed during his existence.
I’m truly hoping he is held to the highest standards of accountably for his actions to in effect distort and end Democracy subvert our elections. In addition I wouldn’t mind him being held for life in solitary in prison for sharing highly confidential secrets with anyone especially foreign governments!/—
///
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title ….
///
18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
///
I find I’m incredibly angry over the sharing of our Secrets and attempts to corrupt our elections.—— Merrick Garland causes many questions.
Yes, Garland has turned out to have been a terrible choice for AG. NOTHING, in two years, done about the orange sadist! That should have been enough to kick him out. Bringing in Eric Holder may have been the way to go.
Elon Musk and Putin will pay Trump’s bill.
He should have been sentenced to prison in addition to all this.
If it isn't accountability, what is it? If is isn't accountability it must be just a political trick as Trump says it is. Don't get me wrong, I believe it is accountability, although what the Trump family is charged with is probably more prevalent among the 1% of our population who hold 90% of our wealth close to themselves, and the main reason they are holding on to it is greed and power, to the detriment of us all. How else can these one percenters continue to hold on to their gross wealth without using (abusing?) government systems, especially the courts? The Trump family has done this for decades by being able to pay exorbitant fees to law firms that unethically and immorally specialize in fleecing people and delaying justice, and paying off Congressmen through PACs that were illegal before Citizens United came along. The legal profession has turned on the rule of law for their own benefit, because they can, successfully maintaining this gross wealth inequality. It's time to make all of these one percenters accountable. If we were to take just half of the wealth of the top half percent of these people/corporations, they would still be wealthy and our country, and the world, would be able to address every problem and end poverty and the injustices of racism and the failure to guarantee the rights of everyone. It is time that this minority of deplorables who are in control of Congress and our legal systems be stopped and our democracy restored.
There is a vast difference between civil and criminal accountability. We see here the beginnings of the former so-called President’s civil accountability. Because that man defines himself by his money, losing any of it in such a manner will be enormously damaging to his psyche. For me, there is no accountability until he is convicted of criminal and treasonous acts against our citizens and our nation. This includes seeing him carted off to prison, where he rightfully belongs for who knows how many other under-investigated crimes.
As far as I am concerned, the only just punishment for Trump is life in prison. The problem with that is that he will still be able to stir up the hoards of people who are stupid enough to believe that he is honest and actually cares about them. :( I am surrounded by Trump supporters, (family, friends, neighbors,) and there is no way to persuade them to even consider the fact that he is anything but a hero. I am becoming more and more of a hermit. :(
Regarding "accountability": Is our judicial system neutral enough and objective enough to assure that Trump & Co. pay their just dues? Or, is the court, in this instance the Supreme Court, so mired in its own corruption to rule toward political favors rather than render a decision that is justice uncorrupted?
Trump, forever the obnoxious tantrum-throwing five-year-old may finally be meeting his very own comeuppance. The man is forever one of the most disgusting persons in the universe. "Contrition"? HA! A person so void of dignity and decency can never be contrite. I reflect on how many "news" hours have been spent on this man over the last decade. He is a life-waster, wasting the lives of millions with his toxic games. And, speaking of games perhaps he has finally met his own head-to-head. One must wonder what an entire day without Trump might even feel like. A gift from heaven, perhaps?
Yes, it feels like the beginning of accountability. It feels like the first thrusters of a rocket firing just before liftoff, and after numerous holds. It feels like the slow grinding wheels of justice finally getting traction and beginning to grind on him. It feels like the first bubbles finally starting to form in a pot of water about to boil.
The justice system has been remarkably reliable, though by design it gives the accused every opportunity, even though criminals with means can jam up the works. And there is a real danger that his strategy of delaying the proceedings until after the election could enable him to avoid true accountability altogether, if he should win or orchestrate another coup that actually succeeds.
There is also the distinct possibility that having an obvious fraudster and traitor at the top of the ticket in this election will spell then end of the GOP stranglehold on public policy, and enable America to overcome an existential threat to democracy.
I’m very grateful for this judgement, Steven. It has reassured me of a Justice system that has some competent professionals at work who understand the severity of their responsibilities, and the repercussions that may ensue based on their decisions. Especially the “no one is above the law” sentiment. This matters to me. However(!)… until “citizen” Phlegm(former President) is “out of sight, out of mind”, (full)accountability will have to wait.
There is much more to come and many can find fault with even this harsh judgement but in reality this is great in all of its weakness' since the real judgement must and will be on November 5th of this year! We/ all of the normal freedom loving people of this country will send this man to hell with our vote. It will be the ultimate disgrace for his feeble mind and the most righteous event of my life.
I wish people would stop calling the March 25 trial the "hush money" trial. He's on trial for election interference, which is far more important, and relevant. Stop normalizing his behavior, it isn't helping people understand what's at stake.
And a propos, part of the fraud is on the taxpayers of New York, Florida and New Jersey which I not heard mentioned in discussing this verdict.
The banks may have said "no big deal" when he overvalued his real estate, but part of the fraud was, and more blatantly in my mind, undervalued the same property for property tax purposes and thereby underpaying property taxes forever.
Anybody living in NYC or NJ knew what trump was before 2016. A cheat, a fraud, a braggart,a womanizer, a nonpaying employer of illegals, a man of no decency who would cheat his own brother. But he had money, ill gotten, but hey. And so he was accepted into that snooty kind of pretend we like opera society and by politicians who wanted into his wallet. He is trump and always will be. Forget contrition, apology,believer in law, compassion . trump lives for trump, will till the day he dies. So, don't expect him to go away. He will accuse his opponents of rigging, witch hunt, being vermin, call for retribution and revenge and whine Poor Me until the cows come home and the buffalo roam.
I haven't much respect for many of his lawyers, making up things like immunity from committed crimes, can't be tried if a president, saying the holder of an office is not an officer. No wonder lawyers have a bad name, are the butt of jokes. Between them and the slowness (fear?) of the DOJ, we now find democracy down to the wire. Appeals will be dragged out and ponderous while November will soon be upon us.
Mary says devastated. I say furious, enraged, livid, and thus, dangerous. He may be held accountable by brave, threatened prosecutors and judges, but he needs to be held accountable to the citizens of the United States.
And poor New York. Nothing before trump and would be nothing without him. Its misfortune will be prosperity for Bekins and Allied ! May they all head west, not south. The traffic here is already atrocious!!
I think you've got most of it right, but I can't buy " Nothing before trump and would be nothing without him." Unless you mean that's what he thinks. NYC was a great city and could be again. But I grew up there and Trump was *always* known to be a con man fraud.
Sarcasm. 😐
Same thing. Fear of seeming complicit.
I think it’s both. It’s too little too late. But i also think it’s taking a real toll on him as Mary Trump says. I’m furious at the way he has been treated way more leniently than anyone else would have been, but some accountability is better than no accountability. And in spite of his shows of bravado, I believe Mary Trump when she says the shattering of his image as a hugely successful businessman is his worst punishment—worse, I’m sure, than prison.
Justice? No. Accountability? Maybe. Will these judgements against him actually cost HIM money? Remains to be seen. Is the missing binder of secret classified information now on the auction block to the highest bidder? Will Putin or the House of Saud come to his rescue? And what will they get in return? This is a precarious moment in our history. It’s now even more imperative that this person is soundly defeated at the ballot box. And then let the criminal courts take their turns.
As with Al Capone and his taxes, we need to take accountability in whatever form we can get it. I think fraud is a screen for more nefarious dealings--the long speculated but never proved loan guarantees from Russian oligarchs. Is Deutsche Bank really fine to take sub-standard returns for the risk presented or were they taking much less risk than what appears? I believe based only on circumstantial evidence that the banks would rather be seen as having been deceived by Trump than exposed as having accepted financial guarantees from dodgy interests abroad.
TFG has done so many bad things that it's futile to expect full accountability. But I do think that this huge financial judgement represents a bit of karma. The only thing that speaks to his cold heart is money. If there's a judgment day, he'll be held accountable for his crimes against humanity.
Accountability? Yes and no. After all the years of lying, cheating, and defrauding individuals and businesses alike, it is good to see some financial penalty. Hopefully most of it will stick. However, it is the 4 criminal cases I am watching with much more interest. Unless at least one of those bring him to task, our country will never be the same and never will be able to heal.
A start, but a good one...DA Bragg will notch up a criminal conviction as a warm-up for the Jan6 trial, but the MAL docs and the GA election interference cases are mired in all matter of procedural issues, so "accountability" takes a holiday down South. All in all, the walls are closing in on Orange Jesus - Hallelujah!!
Trump created so much destruction for so many years, that he will never be held accountable for all of it. And yet, Judge Engoron's ruling is a fair and correct step to be taken. Trump must disgorge millions of fraudulently gained income AND pay interest on the money for the time that he's had it. By the time all is said and done, it will be well over $450 billion. In Trump-world, that's YUGE. And he's out of business in NY for at least 2 years. A lot will happen to his NY businesses in that time.
The judgment is well deserved, and he will not be able to appeal the verdict until he puts up the money, one way or another.
And he's facing further legal proceedings. The wheels of justice are grinding, and he can squawk all he wants.
The cornerstone of his appeal is proven false. Trump is not a businessman. He is not a successful businessman. He is a fraud. He was a fraud as President, too. Plain as the nose on your face.
Trump and accountability - the two words do not seem to fit together. He is still appealing and getting others to help pay - donations and those freaky gold shoes. He worms his way out of everything by finding loopholes. And his supporters are still full on board with his grifting and criminal activities. If anyone of us had done the things he has done we would be in prison. At this point, regarding Trump and accountability, I think I am at "I will believe it when I see it" - and I have not seen it yet
The impending legal challenges facing Donald Trump open a Pandora's box of inquiries about the very fabric of accountability and the legal system's capability to impartially hold individuals of immense power to account. Are we on the cusp of witnessing a paradigm shift towards genuine justice, or are we merely observing a fragmentary skirmish in an extensive battlefield of legal confrontations?
The progression of these cases, in light of Trump's tenure as President, ostensibly indicates an assertion of accountability that supersedes political stature. Yet, it's crucial to approach this with an understanding of the legal labyrinth: its complexity, its protracted nature, and the inherent unpredictability of judicial outcomes.
The repercussions of these legal proceedings on Trump could be profound, affecting him both personally and in the political arena. The erosion of public trust in his character and ethical standing might be exacerbated, potentially derailing his aspirations for future political ventures.
Conversely, there exists a sentiment that these legal actions might be perceived as too insubstantial or belated, particularly if the wheels of justice grind too slowly. With the specter of the 2024 presidential race looming and Trump maintaining his political visibility, the adage 'justice delayed is justice denied' resonates with pertinence.
The ramifications of these cases, along with their influence on Trump's political trajectory, will hinge on myriad factors: the cogency of the evidence, the fairness of the judicial process, and the societal reception of these events. This situation, in all its complexity, invites ongoing dialogue and critical examination as it develops.
I am unsure that anyone of such voluntary evilness can ever be held accountable. History will weigh in on that. I personally feel better that there is some reckoning , however slowly and imperfectly it is occurring. I take heart that djt is publicly humiliated and assigned a "Loser" stigma for all to see. These are painful for him. He deserves the ignominy he is receiving.
It is a start. The Republican party should be held to account by outlawing it if it nominates DJT after a conviction is obtained. Why should it be permitted to qualify a criminal for the presidency? All lawyers who defended his lies in courts should also be disbarred. My point is that accountability should be spread to all reaches of this fascist cancer.
Yes
It does
We need to stop making comparisons to his criminal cases.
I wish commentators would point out the many other civil fraud cases. It is not selective prosecution. It is selective reporting of that mischaracterization. And civil fraud is such an oxymoron.
Accountability can never be achieved for all the evil deeds and criminality Trump and his sycophants have exacted on this country, indeed the world.
Trump must become an example. This can only be achieved through sheer and unabashed punishment. The objective should not be vengence, but to post a warning.
Why is the next case called the “hush money” case? It is election interference - hiding relevant fact from voters before the election. It is a serious case and should not have a silly name.
Total damages and fines of over 1/2 BILLION is a good start. 4 more trials to come. It’s only accountability until all the cases are complete.
I’ve always wondered why Trump would want to delay all his trials since he claims he did everything perfectly in every case. Surely a jury of his peers would acquit an innocent man. It seems like he would have a better chance to be PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES if he was found innocent. Hmmmm…..
LOL!